Future Grands Prix?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Thanks for the stats but I don't think just two seasons is enough to go on. Attendance figures over a 10 year period, would give a better picture.

As for showing that a large attendance does not always provide a secure future, that doesn't appear to be the case, as non of those tracks with a large attendance has fallen off the calendar. Also, I don't think it's just about having a large attendance per se but a consistent and sustainable attendance. Therefore a track, any given year knows it can anticipate having a good sized crowd, which will bring in the money.

As far as I know the figures are for attendance across a four day "weekend", Thursday through Sunday and often include the attendance of a post race concert.

[Armco Bender]

You would need to quantify attendance by finding out how many actually pay to attend the event.
Many events give away huge amounts of free tickets to get people through the gate.

[Adam43]

Good point. Events that are cheaper or free should get a higher rating. Like free to air coverage is a good thing for F1.

[Purist]

Just doing some quick checking on the listed circuit capacity, I think every one of those top 10 just about must be inflated, except, maybe, for Mexico.

The Russia figure is also definitely inflated, and I suspect the Azerbaijan one is somewhat artificial as well.

Italy, Brazil, and Japan seem like possible, if not probable, low-ball numbers. And I strongly think the listed capacity for the Red Bull Ring is inaccurate on the low side.

Aside from track capacity, you also have to, to an extent, consider the geographic and/or population size of the nation in question, as well as how many of its nearby neighbors have a GP.

One way to look at it is this. The European rounds, aside from Russia and Azerbaijan, all seem to draw rather well, and likely have a higher proportion of paid ticket sales than some of the other, much newer events. On the other hand, China doesn't even draw a full one-day audience, when looking at the circuit's theoretical capacity of 200,000, and this is in a country that is how large and how populated, near one of the most major and developed cities, and the only F1 race within how many thousands of miles on the Eurasian mainland.

I mean, shoot, Australia draws better, and it has fewer people in the entire country (also continent) than does the city of Shanghai on its own.

But anyway, changing gears here, I'll address another matter that Crmalcolm was harping on.

If I'm rating current/recent F1 circuits largely on how enjoyable I think the racing has been, this is roughly what I get:
1. Spa-Francorchamps
2. Interlagos
3. Red Bull Ring
4. Montreal
5. Melbourne
6. Suzuka
7. Monza
8. Baku
*(Somewhat optimistic estimate if Buriram were to join F1)*
9. Istanbul**
10. Sepang*
11. Singapore
12. Silverstone
13. Hockenheim*
14. Austin
*(Conservative estimate for Zandvoort)*
15. Hungaroring
16. Catalunya
17. Shanghai
18. Mexico City
19. Abu Dhabi
20. Bahrain
21. Buddh**
22. Sochi
*(My fear for Hanoi)*
23. Valencia**
24. Yeongam**
25. Monte Carlo

Keep in mind, I'm trying to compare like to like, which means the odd wet race has to be regarded as something of an outlier if the circuit in question normally doesn't produce that level of racing intrigue.

Also, non-permanent circuits that manage decent racing may get a bump up; on this note, Singapore would be higher, but the changes around the Anderson Bridge have definitely hurt the racing there in the last few years. Baku might also be higher, but for the absurdity of having DRS, at least on that 2.2-km front stretch.

In addition, if the circuits are close enough in racing terms, I may clump them, but the order they're in may not be a totally precise thing.

So something like:
Tier 1: 1-3
Tier 2: 4-8
Tier 3: 9-12
Tier 4: 13-16
Tier 5: 17-20
Tier 6: 21-24
And Monaco is in a class all its own.

And then, with a circuit like Istanbul, it's hard to know exactly how things would go with the current cars, but I don't think the racing now would be any worse.

Finally, on the bright side, some of the worst ones didn't last a terribly long time.

[bjohnsonsmith]

It looks like the Miami GP has taken a step to becoming reality.

https://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/146610

[S griffin]

That went a bit quiet, now it is back in the picture again

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It looks like the Miami GP has taken a step to becoming reality.

https://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/146610

With an estimated annual impact of more than $400million

thats a shockingly high estimate. i honestly dont think the SuperBowl generates that much for the host region.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

With an estimated annual impact of more than $400million

thats a shockingly high estimate. i honestly dont think the SuperBowl generates that much for the host region.

It's Miami. They must be under the impression f1 brings with it what imsa did back in the 70s/80s....

[S griffin]

Now the Miami sportscar GPs in the 80s, now that was an event

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

With an estimated annual impact of more than $400million

thats a shockingly high estimate. i honestly dont think the SuperBowl generates that much for the host region.

It’s probably why you said it, the next Super Bowl is there.

[Purist]

The opposing bidder for the F1 commercial rights was a group funded in large part by the Dolphins owner, so Liberty Media may be feeling the pressure to deliver on earlier negotiations.

As to the track, I'd like to see a proper plan-form view, as well as a lap length. If it's around 3.0 miles, then at least 3 of those stretches should be of decent length, and having only 15 turns or so, the lap doesn't look horribly busy overall, thankfully.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I've just sketched it out in Google maps to around 3.5 miles based on the landmarks around the stadium.



The pit straight is going to be at best 450-470m

The top straight is going to be between 1100m and 1200m

Maybe google earth imagery is outdated but the circuit drawing shows the top straight starts from a 90 degree left near one of the main entrances. This area is covered in on/off ramps at all sorts of heights and angles. I'm not sure how they are going to work that one out.

.

I'm sure someone more local than I can comment on that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I don't know how accurate this is but this is the track layout, according to The Daily Mail.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-revealed.html

[Purist]

Yeah, BJS, that's the one RACER had in their article, which is why I was wondering about a truer plan-form track diagram.

SBF, if that is ~3.5 miles, we've got 4 decent stretches there; the left/right before start/finish ought to be flat-out. I also like how the layout as a whole doesn't feel overly busy. And honestly, for a temporary circuit especially, the flow could be a whole heck of a lot worse.

One of the renderings appears to show an elevated section of the track, but that could just be someone taking artistic license. I wonder if they'd be able to add a ground-level access road under those elevated ramps to connect that corner.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Purist

I wonder if they'd be able to add a ground-level access road under those elevated ramps to connect that corner.

I expect that will be the answer. Frankly, looking at the layout and the current sat views, I expect there will need to be a decent amount of construction to create this even if it uses a bit of city streets.

To be honest, I remain highly doubtful given the recent history of ANY new proposed US GP location (especially a temp street circuit).

Richard

[chillibowl]

sounds like Miami has run into more problems in part because of the community's opposition to the race and also it sounds like the F1 delegation was unprepared. the article is kind of a funny read.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...eting/4589604/

some of the arguments like toxic smoke is the height of NIMBY hysteria but i have to say im on their side. this race in this layout should not happen.

to each their own, but already there are too many races imo and while i do like there to be variety in track formats and layouts it seems ridiculous to me that anyone would take a couple of billion dollars worth of cars and run them around in an actual parking lot.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

to each their own, but already there are too many races imo and while i do like there to be variety in track formats and layouts it seems ridiculous to me that anyone would take a couple of billion dollars worth of cars and run them around in an actual parking lot.

They did it in Caesar's Palace parking lot.

[chillibowl]

i wasnt watching back then, but from what i have read, those races were not well received.

would be curious to hear from those with first hand experience though. lots of hotels i guess which was nice but was the racing any good?

[Peter Mallett]

It was shyte!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i wasnt watching back then, but from what i have read, those races were not well received.

would be curious to hear from those with first hand experience though. lots of hotels i guess which was nice but was the racing any good?

I remember watching the highlights of both races, '81 and '82 on BBC and the first race was better than the second. The drivers hated it because it was very hot, with high g corners. Piquet passed out on the podium. The fixed skirts in '82, made for also a very bumpy track. F1 abandoned it after '82. CART raced there in '83 and '84 before they too abandoned it.

[S griffin]

Piquet didn't pass out on the podium, that was Rio 82. In Vegas he vomited in his helmet and in the end he had to be carried out of his car.

It certainly was different Vegas, at least you could pop back to the hotel if you forgot something. Clive James documentary on it is worth a look up on YouTube

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Piquet didn't pass out on the podium, that was Rio 82. In Vegas he vomited in his helmet and in the end he had to be carried out of his car.

It certainly was different Vegas, at least you could pop back to the hotel if you forgot something. Clive James documentary on it is worth a look up on YouTube

My mistake, though I thought he got out of the car assisted at Vegas and then collapsed? Either way it was a terrible place to host a race.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

It was shyte!

You go Peter ......

[bjohnsonsmith]

Zandvoort has said the banking at the final corner will be like an American oval and is set to be twice as steep as the turns at Indianapolis. The banking at IMS is 9.2°.

[S griffin]

It will certainly be worth a watch to see how they cope with it