Query on ETCC/BTCC rules

**Craig** · 11 Jun 2003, 19:29 (Ref:628701)

Should a manufacturer choose to enter an ETCC spec car in both the ETCC and BTCC then what will happen with regard to the strict limit on testing laid down by TOCA? Surely they will gain an (unfair?) advantage over those who choose to compete only in the BTCC and who therefore have to stict within the testing limit? Or is the idea that they have to choose one series or the other - in which case the only teams the changes are likely to attract to the BTCC are privateers running old works cars?

jon2211 · 11 Jun 2003, 19:35 (Ref:628709)

But what if someone were to enter a BMW, would they be able to run with the additional 500rpm, or would they have to run to BTCC rev limits?

Could someone take the ex-TAK MG's, undertake the limited changes to get them to ETCC spec and then run with 500rpm more than the works cars?

**Craig** · 11 Jun 2003, 19:41 (Ref:628721)

The BTCC will allow entries from cars meeting both BTCC and ETCC technical regs next season - so any car meeting the ETCC regs is permitted to run in the BTCC in the exact same spec as they would in the ETCC.

However the sporting regs will make provision for weight penalties, etc. to even out the differences in speed/power between the two classes.

redshoes · 11 Jun 2003, 19:48 (Ref:628732)

I assume the testing restriction would apply to the team as opposed to the manufactorer. That said, I agree it could be difficult to police.

As I understand it the ETCC technical regs would be unchanged so the extra rpm for 5 and 6-cylinder engines would still apply.

As for converting a BTC-T car, I'm not sure it would be possible/practical. You could however take a BTC-P car and convert it. The earler Super2000 spec cars started lift as converted Super Production cars.

**Craig** · 11 Jun 2003, 20:10 (Ref:628760)

Sorry, for manufacturer, read team. Use the term interchangeably. However if, say, BMW (as a manufacturer) were to decide to run a car in each series then all they have to do is brand their team with two different identities. Or simply share all setup data between their two teams.

Even if that were not to happen would a team running an ETCC spec car in the BTCC be allowed to enter individual rounds of the ETCC - for example at Silverstone or Donington - in order to gain an additional advantage?

Big can of worms really when you think about it. I think it can only result in the end of the testing restrictions which keep the costs down and, in the longer term, the end of the BTCC technical regs themselves - along with the spec components which keep costs a lot lower than they would be otherwise.

**touringlegend** · 11 Jun 2003, 20:47 (Ref:628838)

The more and more I think of this the more and more I think it's a round about way of dropping the BTC Touring technical regs in favour of the ETCC regulations. I think it's inevitable that through the next few years we will see less and less BTC Tourers built. I'm even doubting now as to whether we've seen the last of the brand new BTC Tourers, as Motorsport News are reporting this decision has raised Ford's interest in the BTCC again - because they could use the car all over Europe.

ETCC spec cars will follow the same BTCC testing restrictions next year but say, if Edenbridge run 3-series', then BMW(as in the big bosses) are hardly going to hold back developments on the car. Mind you, as at the moment each BMW team is importer backed in the ETCC, would they be willing to share data with their other importers???

I think you're right about the inevitable end of the testing restriction's Craig...however I would say that despite that perhaps happening, in hand with that we'd see a bigger following of the BTCC so ulitmately it would be money well spent. Just a big cycle now I suppose. In another 7 or 8 years we could have new regs again..

Radisichrox · 11 Jun 2003, 20:54 (Ref:628861)

If an ETCC team wants to enter the BTCC, wouldn't they be able to be registered in both series and because of that, be able to go testing at ETCC tracks? Thus avoiding the BTCC testing ban?

Smart idea, methinks. An ETCC team with little knowledge of BTCC tracks but plenty of testing at Magny Cours or Mugello would be behind the 8 ball and thus have to put up with the limited testing the BTCC offers at their tracks- leading to a well developed car for ETCC rounds but poorly developed for the tighter, generally twistier circuits of the UK?

**Craig** · 11 Jun 2003, 21:03 (Ref:628880)

The TOCA test ban applies to all cars that compete in the BTCC and is NOT specific to circuits in the UK. To test ANYWHERE the team must notify TOCA who, if they wish, will send along an observer (at the expense of the team) to check that they are running with sealed engines, etc. The problem would arise if and when the team tried to run a car in the ETCC - which would effectively become a test session and, technically, would break the testing limitation.

cos · 12 Jun 2003, 10:47 (Ref:629269)

Alan Gow's response on the Oca forum to this issue:

Quote:

It's not really a problem....testing on a track in, say, Italy is not relevent to setting-up or developing a car for Oulton Park, for example.

Back in the Super Touring days we also had UK testing restrictions (although not as severe as we do now), and it wasn't an issue then, either.

Besides, it already happens right now. There is a BTCC car (Astra) racing and testing in Sweden, and nobody considers it as a violation of the UK testing ban.

**Craig** · 12 Jun 2003, 16:10 (Ref:629556)

But the ETCC also visits British circuits, yes...?

kmchow · 12 Jun 2003, 17:16 (Ref:629612)

But besides setup, perhaps there can be engine testing? Testing out how different spec engines hold up? Or testing different engine management programs run? And even if no engine testing is allowed, perhaps it gives drivers extra seat time which makes them more familiar and comfortable with their car?

Radisichrox · 12 Jun 2003, 19:25 (Ref:629769)

Quote:

Originally posted by kmchow
But besides setup, perhaps there can be engine testing? Testing out how different spec engines hold up? Or testing different engine management programs run? And even if no engine testing is allowed, perhaps it gives drivers extra seat time which makes them more familiar and comfortable with their car?

Not only is it that but suspension, tyre management, development parts, everything. Very interesting issue.

100%VauxhallFan · 15 Jun 2003, 00:14 (Ref:631673)

Quote:

Originally posted by cos
Alan Gow's response on the Oca forum to this issue:

Ooo, I asked that question. Glad to see other people have been thinking what I have though. It's very much a grey area in terms of the rules I think.

No offence to Alan, but I dont think he has thought this through very well, or at least if he has, he isn't making it all that clear to us lot!

sceptic · 15 Jun 2003, 10:03 (Ref:631855)

Quote:

Originally posted by Radisichrox
Not only is it that but suspension, tyre management, development parts, everything. Very interesting issue.

Teams wouldn't be able to do any tyre development because Dunlop wouldn't supply them with any tyres.

It's all very well saying teams would be able to test overseas if they registered for the ETCC, but testing isn't much use if you're having to do it on not only a different compound of tyre, but also a different make of tyre that you then race on in the UK?

Teams would soon see that any such testing is just a waste of money. Paying to ship cars overseas, paying extra staff, paying the ETCC entry fee.

And don't think that BMW would share set-up data between the ETCC and BTCC...they won't share it between different teams in the ETCC, so they are hardly going to let a BTCC team see it.

kmchow · 15 Jun 2003, 22:16 (Ref:632377)

Quote:

Originally posted by sceptic
Teams would soon see that any such testing is just a waste of money. Paying to ship cars overseas, paying extra staff, paying the ETCC entry fee.

hmmm, that depends on high badly a manufacturer wants to win the championship. If they want it that badly, they will pay for everything to test the cars overseas. Heck, it's only money anyways!

How much will you pay for bragging rights?

Quote:

And don't think that BMW would share set-up data between the ETCC and BTCC...they won't share it between different teams in the ETCC, so they are hardly going to let a BTCC team see it.

OTOH, if Alfa continues to dominate the ETCC, you can bet BMW will start sharing information!!

SALEEN S7R · 16 Jun 2003, 23:25 (Ref:633641)

Quote:

Originally posted by kmchow
hmmm, that depends on high badly a manufacturer wants to win the championship. If they want it that badly, they will pay for everything to test the cars overseas. Heck, it's only money anyways! How much will you pay for bragging rights?

OTOH, if Alfa continues to dominate the ETCC, you can bet BMW will start sharing information!!

Sorry but u obviously havent been watching the ETCC this year, if u had u would realise on the whole its the BMW's that are dominating so far.

ETCC Drivers championship so far

1.Tarquni 44 points (Alfa)
2.Andy Priaulx 40 points (BMW)
3.Dirk Muller 38 points (BMW
4.Jorg Muller 36 points (BMW

Manufacturers championship so far

1.BMW 120 Points
2.Alfa Romeo 90 Points
3.SEAT 4 Points

As I think u will agree BMW are on the whole dominating the ETCC, with the exception of Tarquini. Sceptic is right too, Schnitzer wont be letting any of the other BMW works teams know about any data they gather. Just like the other BMW teams woudnt tell Schnitzer any test data they get.

redshoes · 17 Jun 2003, 07:39 (Ref:633843)

If BMW are dominating why is an Alfa driver currently leading the championship standings :confused:

SALEEN S7R · 17 Jun 2003, 09:50 (Ref:633936)

They are only leading the drivers Championship though, and only by 4 points. In the manufacturers championship BMW are leading, by 30 points. And after Tarquini at the top of the drivers championship there isnt another Alfa Romeo driver until u go down to 5th place. So I think BMW have the edge at the moment.

100%VauxhallFan · 17 Jun 2003, 12:29 (Ref:634127)

Quote:

Originally posted by redshoes
If BMW are dominating why is an Alfa driver currently leading the championship standings :confused:

Ah, that's because the ETCC is the most exciting racing in the world ever, and that anything that would make sense to normal people like us, is totally turned around on its head, such is the brilliance of the ETCC.

SALEEN S7R · 17 Jun 2003, 12:34 (Ref:634139)

Yeah and ur a fine one to talk about exciting championships. As a BTCC supporter, gee I wonder which Vauxall will win the next round?

Just look at the points board of the BTCC.

Drivers Championship.

1.Yvan Muller 116 points (Vauxall)
2.James Thompson 97 points (Vauxall)
3.Paul O'Neil 61 points (Vauxall)

BTCC Teams Championship.

1.VX Racing 207 points
2.Honda Racing 105 points
3.MG Sport and Racing 75 points

Yeah ur right, the BTCC is far more exciting than the ETCC and the BTCC isnt dominated by the 1 manufacturer at all. (yeah right) at least with the ETCC Alfa Romeo lead the drivers championship but BMW lead the Constructors championship, compare that to the BTCC, where Vauxall lead both.

Both the ETCC and the DTM arent as one sided as the BTCC, just look at the points situation and u can see that for yourself.

100%VauxhallFan · 17 Jun 2003, 12:35 (Ref:634141)

I don't get it? I was sticking up for the ETCC! :crazy:

ATF · 17 Jun 2003, 20:42 (Ref:634865)

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease let's not have another "my championship is better than yours" thread!!!

the_tsar · 17 Jun 2003, 21:11 (Ref:634901)

It would be great to see SEAT in the BTCC (the more I write the less relevent it seems to get) because they are really nice looking cars.

100%VauxhallFan · 17 Jun 2003, 21:55 (Ref:634946)

Quote:

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
gee I wonder which Vauxall will win the next round?

Oh, just something I've noticed, there wont ever be another Vauxall win again. Vauxhall on the other hand...

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