[Official] Canadian Grand Prix 2018: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's easy to blame BH because his job is on the line. But that's not really being honest about the incident is it? That's just going with the flow of things, and tbh - being on a bandwagon.

well if the wagon leaving the station has both Hartley and Stroll on it then i would gladly join both the wagon and the band in playing their exit music!

but in fairness i would say likewise, that you may be showing Hartely more support then he deserves also because his seat is on the line. just different sides of the same coin.

as for the logic of a pass/overtake...point taken and i would counter with that anytime a following driver chooses to overtake but relies on using the curb (and thin strip of grass in this case) in order to find the room necessary, then that move inherently has an element of risk to it...whether that comes from not having enough room or being able to cleanly rejoin the track. more suspect given that there was also a wall there.

i wouldnt go so far as to call these types of overtakes as marginal but its not truly clean pass attempt either.

of course, if you get it right you are a genius and if you get it wrong then some blame has to be accepted as well.

dont want to get into track limits/one wheel is in bounds debate, but surely given the amount of room (even if Stroll had managed to keep it clean) this was not representative of a smart overtaking attempt. imo, clearly fraught with more danger and risk than reward no?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's easy to blame BH because his job is on the line. But that's not really being honest about the incident is it? That's just going with the flow of things, and tbh - being on a bandwagon.

I think it's seriously clutching at straws to say "his only hope was that Stroll could maintain enough car control to leave both of them enough room". This logic applies to every pass ever made. Every single overtake in any motorsport requires the driver being overtaken to not crash his car into the other one.

Also "so much of the race left". Well with overtaking as difficult as it is in F1 (and as difficult as it proved in Montreal), a real racer would take any chance they would get to make a pass rather than say "maybe it'll come up later".

The accident literally would not have happened had Stroll not run out of talent. From Strolls point of view, he was not hit, he did not have a puncture, and the fact another car was alongside him didn't matter. He ran out of talent and was on his way to the wall and just happened to collect BH on the way there.

From BHs point of view, he left Stroll room, was not on his way to an accident and was setting himself up to be on the inside for the next corner. Literally, the only thing that would've stopped it working was Stroll running out of talent at that very moment...and that's what happened. You cannot decide to not make passes just in case the driver you're passing has a crash.

If BH is at fault for simply being near to Stroll when Stroll decided to have an accident, then I think we need to re-evaluate our opinion of Maldonado. It wasn't his fault that everybody just happened to be near him when he was having crashes! And that guy Grosjean - others should just avoid crashing into him whilst he's spinning wildly across the track. He can hardly be blamed for others not avoiding his antics! It's a strange day in motorsport when the guy getting caught in someone else's accident is just as much to blame as the guy who caused it, literally, on his own.

That's the best explanation of the situation I've read!
Stroll lost time in the previous corner, Hartley came from behind him to at least along side him (so was able to travel considerably faster), the Stroll had his accident. Not Hartley's fault.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't understand how BH can be given any blame. Literally, the accident happened because Stroll got loose. He originally said he had a puncture on the radio, but then afterwards said the car snapped sideways. Unless there's a third statement saying he was hit from behind, I don't see how it's anyones fault but Strolls.

Watch it from BHs onboard. There was no contact between the cars. BH was alongside and had room. Stroll snaps sideways and was on the way to the wall, with or without BH.

That accident was happening whether BH was there or not. He was just unlucky enough to exist at the point where Stroll was having his accident.

I'm not too sure what's really going on here with Stroll, he keeps changing his mind. There's nothing in the footage to suggest he got hit from behind. The nearest car behind Stroll is Sirotkin and at least a car's length separating the two. Looking at the footage again, I think he came in too fast and if Hartley hadn't been there, Stroll would have gone into the barrier.

[Akrapovic]

You can suggest I'm giving BH more support that he deserves, however as a sportscar fan I was never a huge fan of him and don't rate him particularly highly. I wouldn't have given him the STR seat either. Previously I have pitched my tent firmly in the "I don't rate Brendon" camp, and I've also shown support from Stroll when I felt some were unfair to him (see: The Massa comments).

However, my opinion of these two doesn't change my judgement on the accident. The only criticism that is being thrown at BH is "He tried to pass Stroll when Stroll had his crash". I'm really not sure how that can legitimately be called a 50/50 when only one driver caused the mistake to crash. If we're blaming BH for putting himself in a position that would leave him vulnerable should Stroll have made a mistake, then that's at best still a 90/10 situation as Stroll is the only driver who ran out talent, and the accident was going to happen regardless of the position of the STR.

Quite literally, Stroll lost control of his car and crashed and we're sitting saying Brendon is of equal blame. That's...ludicrous.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not too sure what's really going on here with Stroll, he keeps changing his mind. There's nothing in the footage to suggest he got hit from behind. The nearest car behind Stroll is Sirotkin and at least a car's length separating the two. Looking at the footage again, I think he came in too fast and if Hartley hadn't been there, Stroll would have gone into the barrier.

He makes up a lie in the heat of the moment to cover up the mistake, and then obviously has to reign it back a bit later. Grosjean is the 'master' at this - the Baku incident being the latest example, but he's made a career out of crashing into other cars, making up a nonsense story in the seconds afterwards, and then changing it later.

I guess it's a sort of panic reflex. "I can't take the blame" being the cause of making up the story in the first place. I was half expecting to see the replay and see BH cut the Williams tyre with the front wing, but that clearly didn't happen. The fact BH was on the grass was again not down to him - it was Stroll deciding that other cars don't need room to exist. If that was Vettel we'd be calling for a drive through.

I also agree 100% with what you said - whether Hartley was there or not didn't matter to Stroll. He was having that accident purely through his own mistake. Nobody else caused any of it. So how the blame can be 50/50 when it was 100% caused by someone else, I'm not sure.

[cds_uk]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's easy to blame BH because his job is on the line. But that's not really being honest about the incident is it? That's just going with the flow of things, and tbh - being on a bandwagon.

I think it's seriously clutching at straws to say "his only hope was that Stroll could maintain enough car control to leave both of them enough room". This logic applies to every pass ever made. Every single overtake in any motorsport requires the driver being overtaken to not crash his car into the other one.

Also "so much of the race left". Well with overtaking as difficult as it is in F1 (and as difficult as it proved in Montreal), a real racer would take any chance they would get to make a pass rather than say "maybe it'll come up later".

The accident literally would not have happened had Stroll not run out of talent. From Strolls point of view, he was not hit, he did not have a puncture, and the fact another car was alongside him didn't matter. He ran out of talent and was on his way to the wall and just happened to collect BH on the way there.

From BHs point of view, he left Stroll room, was not on his way to an accident and was setting himself up to be on the inside for the next corner. Literally, the only thing that would've stopped it working was Stroll running out of talent at that very moment...and that's what happened. You cannot decide to not make passes just in case the driver you're passing has a crash.

If BH is at fault for simply being near to Stroll when Stroll decided to have an accident, then I think we need to re-evaluate our opinion of Maldonado. It wasn't his fault that everybody just happened to be near him when he was having crashes! And that guy Grosjean - others should just avoid crashing into him whilst he's spinning wildly across the track. He can hardly be blamed for others not avoiding his antics! It's a strange day in motorsport when the guy getting caught in someone else's accident is just as much to blame as the guy who caused it, literally, on his own.

Absolutely 100% spot on.

[chillibowl]

well i guess im on the wrong side on this one.

but i do think that even if Stroll had maintained control i still dont think there was enough room for BH to make a pass.

dude put his car in an impossible place and for me thats a lack of race craft and/or even a lack of knowledge of this track...a problem which manifested itself when Stroll lost control. he took a chance which was all or nothing in nature so that also deserves blame imo.

maybe 50/50 is a bit harsh but for me its not far off imo.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

as for the logic of a pass/overtake...point taken and i would counter with that anytime a following driver chooses to overtake but relies on using the curb (and thin strip of grass in this case) in order to find the room necessary, then that move inherently has an element of risk to it...whether that comes from not having enough room or being able to cleanly rejoin the track. more suspect given that there was also a wall there.

i wouldnt go so far as to call these types of overtakes as marginal but its not truly clean pass attempt either.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but i do think that even if Stroll had maintained control i still dont think there was enough room for BH to make a pass.

What is funny is if you watch the Hartley/Stroll crash video, but watch just before the crash you will see one of the Force India cars passes one of the Renault cars in exactly the way that Hartley was trying to pass Stroll. However, whoever is in the Renault has enough situational awareness that they give the Force India room (Stroll didn't give Hartley room, so Hartley had to run over the curb) and then the Force India finishes the pass where Stroll eventually collects Hartley. I wonder if Stroll knew or cared that Hartley was along side him? Also, Hartley was committed and once they were somewhat interlocked either Stroll was going to give him room, or they were going to crash. We will never know if Stroll was going to give him room before he lost control and the rear stepped out.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

What is funny is if you watch the Hartley/Stroll crash video, but watch just before the crash you will see one of the Force India cars passes one of the Renault cars in exactly the way that Hartley was trying to pass Stroll. However, whoever is in the Renault has enough situational awareness that they give the Force India room (Stroll didn't give Hartley room, so Hartley had to run over the curb) and then the Force India finishes the pass where Stroll eventually collects Hartley. I wonder if Stroll knew or cared that Hartley was along side him? Also, Hartley was committed and once they were somewhat interlocked either Stroll was going to give him room, or they were going to crash. We will never know if Stroll was going to give him room before he lost control and the rear stepped out.

Richard

Very well spotted! I didn't see that. Kinda re-enforces the argument that the move was perfectly legit, it just required the second driver not to make a complete arse of it.

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's easy to blame BH because his job is on the line. But that's not really being honest about the incident is it? That's just going with the flow of things, and tbh - being on a bandwagon.

I think it's seriously clutching at straws to say "his only hope was that Stroll could maintain enough car control to leave both of them enough room". This logic applies to every pass ever made. Every single overtake in any motorsport requires the driver being overtaken to not crash his car into the other one.

Also "so much of the race left". Well with overtaking as difficult as it is in F1 (and as difficult as it proved in Montreal), a real racer would take any chance they would get to make a pass rather than say "maybe it'll come up later".

The accident literally would not have happened had Stroll not run out of talent. From Strolls point of view, he was not hit, he did not have a puncture, and the fact another car was alongside him didn't matter. He ran out of talent and was on his way to the wall and just happened to collect BH on the way there.

From BHs point of view, he left Stroll room, was not on his way to an accident and was setting himself up to be on the inside for the next corner. Literally, the only thing that would've stopped it working was Stroll running out of talent at that very moment...and that's what happened. You cannot decide to not make passes just in case the driver you're passing has a crash.

If BH is at fault for simply being near to Stroll when Stroll decided to have an accident, then I think we need to re-evaluate our opinion of Maldonado. It wasn't his fault that everybody just happened to be near him when he was having crashes! And that guy Grosjean - others should just avoid crashing into him whilst he's spinning wildly across the track. He can hardly be blamed for others not avoiding his antics! It's a strange day in motorsport when the guy getting caught in someone else's accident is just as much to blame as the guy who caused it, literally, on his own.

I’m with you on this. There was a camera angle that showed Stroll mess up getting on the power out of 4 and Hartley got a run on him and managed to get alongside. Looked like Stroll in his desperation had too much throttle and simply lost it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

What is funny is if you watch the Hartley/Stroll crash video, but watch just before the crash you will see one of the Force India cars passes one of the Renault cars in exactly the way that Hartley was trying to pass Stroll. However, whoever is in the Renault has enough situational awareness that they give the Force India room (Stroll didn't give Hartley room, so Hartley had to run over the curb) and then the Force India finishes the pass where Stroll eventually collects Hartley. <snip>
Richard

I'm glad I'm not the only one to have spotted that!

[Armco Bender]

50 million sheep here say it was Strolls fault.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

What is funny is if you watch the Hartley/Stroll crash video, but watch just before the crash you will see one of the Force India cars passes one of the Renault cars in exactly the way that Hartley was trying to pass Stroll. However, whoever is in the Renault has enough situational awareness that they give the Force India room (Stroll didn't give Hartley room, so Hartley had to run over the curb) and then the Force India finishes the pass where Stroll eventually collects Hartley. I wonder if Stroll knew or cared that Hartley was along side him? Also, Hartley was committed and once they were somewhat interlocked either Stroll was going to give him room, or they were going to crash. We will never know if Stroll was going to give him room before he lost control and the rear stepped out.

Richard

i hope this isnt taken as arguing for the sake of arguing but it also looks like the Renault backed out of it before turn 5 for reasons which i can only assume was the risk is too high to try on the outside of turn 5.

so agreed that they handled it far more sensibly then Stroll and BH.

that said, for whatever reason i guess i am looking at this with a certain amount of bias in that i really dont rate either of these drivers....sub in two different drivers that i do rate and, sure, i would probably have a different opinion on this.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

50 million sheep here say it was Strolls fault.

I agree with the 50 million sheep, not the sheeple.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by gert

It is somewhere in the rules:

* if the flag is waved too early the results stands as they were at the moment the flag is shown
* if the flag is late, the results stand at the original shceduled distance, i.e. when the flag should have been shown.

That's how I understand it too. What I don't understand is F1's obsession with "slebs". It's bad enough having David Coulthard interviewing them on the grid when they have absolutely nothing useful to contribute. To let them in on a role which belongs to a properly competent person is verging on criminal. Can you imagine the FA allowing some washed-up wannabee to blow the whistle at the end of the cup final?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Honda's big upgrade was pretty weak. Gasly couldn't keep up with Leclerc in the Sauber. Hartley trying his hardest to get fired. 90% Stroll's fault, but wtf were you doing out there Hartley that's not a passing spot!

First lap. Like everyone, he pokes his nose into every gap he can find, and hopes the other guy doesn't mess up. A forlorn hope in this case.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If BH is at fault for simply being near to Stroll when Stroll decided to have an accident, then I think we need to re-evaluate our opinion of Maldonado. It wasn't his fault that everybody just happened to be near him when he was having crashes! And that guy Grosjean - others should just avoid crashing into him whilst he's spinning wildly across the track. He can hardly be blamed for others not avoiding his antics! It's a strange day in motorsport when the guy getting caught in someone else's accident is just as much to blame as the guy who caused it, literally, on his own.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

That's how I understand it too. What I don't understand is F1's obsession with "slebs". It's bad enough having David Coulthard interviewing them on the grid when they have absolutely nothing useful to contribute. To let them in on a role which belongs to a properly competent person is verging on criminal. Can you imagine the FA allowing some washed-up wannabee to blow the whistle at the end of the cup final?

I don't blame Winnie Harlow at all, she was handed the flag.

There was clearly a miscommunication, between the starter and race control, despite what Charlie Whiting says. Wasn't Charlie the starter, a few years a go?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't understand how BH can be given any blame. Literally, the accident happened because Stroll got loose. He originally said he had a puncture on the radio, but then afterwards said the car snapped sideways. Unless there's a third statement saying he was hit from behind, I don't see how it's anyones fault but Strolls.

Watch it from BHs onboard. There was no contact between the cars. BH was alongside and had room. Stroll snaps sideways and was on the way to the wall, with or without BH.

That accident was happening whether BH was there or not. He was just unlucky enough to exist at the point where Stroll was having his accident.

Plus one to this!

Stroll's fault 100%.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

50 million sheep here say it was Strolls fault.

There must have been a few abstainers if it was only 50 million that voted!

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

That was a 50/50 incident. Stroll lost the rear a little and touched Hartley, but what the hell was Hartley doing on the outside of turn 5!?? Not only did he put his car in there, I actually think he thought he could overtake Stoll there!!?? There was no chance of that happening at that point on the track. Dumb move.


I say 50/50 incident. But if I was to put majority blame on someone it would be Hartley for sure. Should have never put himself in that position. Way too risky for someone in his position.

No, I disagree. I have watched the replays several times and Stroll was a mess all over the curbs on the right side of the circuit way before they connected. Brendon had clear track ahead. What would you have him do, lift and give Stroll room to get his **** together? No, Stroll was at fault all day long.

[Dixon9]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

50 million sheep here say it was Strolls fault.

yep, and whoever compared stroll and hartley in ability earlier clearly only watches F1. one has achieved far more than the other ever will.

in saying that if had to pick a kiwi to drive f1 it would be dixon, then daylight, then bamber or stanaway. maybe van gisbergen for the entertainment (would he cool his wets by driving through the damp grass in an f1 car like he did with the touring car?) none of these will never happen though.

[mikestow]

Charlie Whiting needs pensioning off.Celebs need to be out of sight out of mind,and let the Grid be peopled by those who should be there.A Standard front aero package needs to be used by ALL,and aerodynamically designed to allow the car to follow another without losing all of its downforce.The Tyres should revert back to RUBBER slicks and Wets,and be able to have several grip options,so that mandatory one option tyre changes during the race can take place.What benefit is there from this Chemical compound Tyre that must cost a fortune to produce,that sometimes cant be wamed up properly,especially after a safety car stint,sometimes expires without warning,punctures at the slightest touch.We also need other Tyre Manufacturers to come back into the Sport,so fair Competition is available amongst the Teams in tyre choice!
At the moment,apart from action from the Kids,this so called Sport is becoming DIRE,and a Celebrity Runway!!!

[gert]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think there was an issue with the TV Graphics. In the link here, you can see the flag being waved and the graphic shows 70/70. Vettel still has one more lap to complete though....

The link proves nothing. It shows 70/70 and the flag being waved, but the first car in sight is Ricciardo (not Vettel)
The 70/70 is correct at that moment since the leader has already passed start/finish and at that exactmoment it becomes 70/70 instead of 69/70.

But if they flagged when Vettel crossed it (which they did, hence his questioning over the radio) it was still 69/70 when he arrived out of the last corner and only 70/70 when he crossed the line.

So the question (or: my question anyway) remains: how could anyone possibly misread 69/70 ?
I don't buy that explanation.


EDIT: I see Richard Casto already offered the same explanation a few days ago. I didn't read as far back as I should have.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by gert

The link proves nothing. It shows 70/70 and the flag being waved, but the first car in sight is Ricciardo (not Vettel)
The 70/70 is correct at that moment since the leader has already passed start/finish and at that exactmoment it becomes 70/70 instead of 69/70.

But if they flagged when Vettel crossed it (which they did, hence his questioning over the radio) it was still 69/70 when he arrived out of the last corner and only 70/70 when he crossed the line.

So the question (or: my question anyway) remains: how could anyone possibly misread 69/70 ?
I don't buy that explanation.


EDIT: I see Richard Casto already offered the same explanation a few days ago. I didn't read as far back as I should have.

The link shows 70/70 on the graphics before Vettel starts his 70th lap. The flag was being shown before Vettel exited the last turn on lap 69.