[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Brands Hatch Indy - Rounds 1, 2, 3

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

*Devils Advocate hat on*
So, in your example, the car in front misses a gear, causing the car behind to tap him wide, gaining a place, how will race control/Alan Gow/second car's team know this is what happened, so he doesn't have to give the place back to prevent being awarded a penalty?

the driver behind will obviously know if the car in front caused the problem and thats precisely what they look at when they study on the onboard footage and data after the race when deciding penalties

to give an immediate black flag to anyone that even has the very slightest touch another car, without even investigating the reason behind it is just pure nonsense
all that would happen is that the car in front would brake a little bit early to create a tiny bit of contact and have his competitor black flagged!

[steve_r]

aint going to happen. Carry on discussing all the various scenarios as much as you want though!

[porsche962fan]

Tim said that Team Parker now has the same engine as WSR and seems it completely transformed their fortune

which begs the qustion why the heck didn't they have them last year ?

[Mike Harte]

I think that you miss the point.

If you are following a car as closely as they do in the BTCC, it would be impossible to pass the car in front through the corner. You don't need to be that close to gain a slip-streaming advantage.

Also, it would also be very easy for Race Control to have real-time data-logging and telemetry available so that they can determine whether an error was made by the car in front.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Unfortunately for that assessment, the rules are not being applied that way in 2019.

Regardless of whether your attempt to get past is fair, if you are at least partially to blame, then you have to accept that you can not have an advantage from the contact.

All Chilton had to do (as Jelley did) is concede the place back and try again.

The official BTCC website wording(s):

'Chilton […] was adjudged to have gained an advantage during contact […] Chilton failed to give the position back during the race itself and was therefore penalised'


'As part of the Driving Standards Guidelines issued to all drivers, ‘A driver who gains an unfair advantage through contact caused by them will be penalised, unless they surrender that advantage before a further lap is completed’, and this is something that Chilton failed to do during the incident. […] Jelley made similar contact with Neal during the race in a separate incident but relinquished his position as the guidelines dictate.'


It's clear to the drivers and the officials. So as much as it might be disagreed with here, that's how it is.

Team error as well, Motorbase should have told TC to give the place back, the team has the advantage of the TV coverage to see the 'incident' from the outside and advise the driver if it is or maybe outside the rules.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I just wish that they would just enforce the no-contact rule, which saloon car racing is supposed to have. That would mean a complete ban on 'door handle bashing', 'paint swapping' and 'love taps' and so on. They all invariably upset the composure of the car that's been hit, meaning that the transgressor will have potentially gained an advantage.

With all the technology available in the CoC's control centre, it should be easy to police, and the transgressor should be black flagged immediately.

I would hazard a guess that the drivers would stop doing this immediately after the first culprit was punished in this way.

I appreciate that my view may be considered old fashioned, but having competed for 5 years against the likes of Gerry Marshall and other such great drivers, we never needed to use our racers as bumper cars. And most of the saloon car racing back then was just as exciting as today's BTCC; it just didn't cost us a fortune to have to replace car body parts after each race.

Remember Sutton and one of the Vauxhalls at the last Brands round in 2018? Epic racing with no contact. Incredible that Neal who turned push to pass into an art form and ruined so many races for people has benefitted like this, all smells of being "Hondas turn" in 2019

[billy bleach]

[QUOTE=touring fan01;3896397]seriously?!
so if for example a car in front misses a gear which caused the car to momentarily hesitate and the car right behind tapping him through no fault of his own...your system would black flag that innocent driver immediately!

Sequential gearboxes dont miss gears

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Also, it would also be very easy for Race Control to have real-time data-logging and telemetry available so that they can determine whether an error was made by the car in front.

well the cars dont have real time data telemetry. so that would cost them massive amounts of money.

but if they did then to do what you propose you would need 30 people in race control (one per car) or lets say just 15 people to constantly monitor every input from 30 cars and compare them from each corner of each lap from the laps previously to see if anything is going on?

you really havent thought this through have you.

[touring fan01]

[QUOTE=billy bleach;3896411]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

seriously?!
so if for example a car in front misses a gear which caused the car to momentarily hesitate and the car right behind tapping him through no fault of his own...your system would black flag that innocent driver immediately!

Sequential gearboxes dont miss gears

but they do have gearbox problems. but forget missing a gear. any issue will do. could be a missfire or a brake problem or whatever.

[TR4racer]

Sequential gearboxes dont miss gears

They do miss gears and get stuck in gears when not functioning correctly...

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Sequential gearboxes dont miss gears

Yes they do.

But to the OP, the cars don’t have telemetry and the cost would be massive if they did.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Remember Sutton and one of the Vauxhalls at the last Brands round in 2018? Epic racing with no contact. Incredible that Neal who turned push to pass into an art form and ruined so many races for people has benefitted like this, all smells of being "Hondas turn" in 2019

I remember the dice between Josh Cook & Ash Sutton in the final race at Brands last year, excellent stuff, close and fair racing. I do also seem to remember that Cook finally got past Sutton after a bit of contact and the Subaru ran wide not that I'm saying this was deliberate (apparently they are really good friends). However, under the 2019 rules Josh would have received a penalty for this if he hadn't let Ash back past afterwards...

[SnoodyMcFlude]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Sequential gearboxes dont miss gears

Tell that to Guy Martin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjZXaUwYoog

Unlikely to cause a big problem in BTCC anyway, the instances of someone getting a missed gear, then being punted and the driver behind getting an advantage must be few and far between.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I remember the dice between Josh Cook & Ash Sutton in the final race at Brands last year, excellent stuff, close and fair racing. I do also seem to remember that Cook finally got past Sutton after a bit of contact and the Subaru ran wide not that I'm saying this was deliberate (apparently they are really good friends). However, under the 2019 rules Josh would have received a penalty for this if he hadn't let Ash back past afterwards...

those same rules were in place in 2018 so if neither driver had an issue with that contact and didnt complain about it then they obviously would not give a penalty
(they dont give driving standards penalities before interviewing the drivers)

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

those same rules were in place in 2018 and if neither driver had an issue with that contact and didnt complain about it then they obviously would not give a penalty
(they dont give driving standards penalities before interviewing the drivers)

OK then, if that's the case then I'll stand corrected.
I got the impression from what I heard on the TV commentary on Sunday, and what I'd read since then, that the rules relating to 'push to pass' had been revised for this year, or at least it had been made perfectly clear to the drivers at the meeting that they would be enforced more strongly this year.

[Akrapovic]

If the argument against Mike Hartes point is "What about misfires!?" then I think it's pretty say to say Mike has a very good point.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If the argument against Mike Hartes point is "What about misfires!?" then I think it's pretty say to say Mike has a very good point.

they dont have real time telemetry so that stops his point dead in its tracks

[Akrapovic]

lol no it doesn't. The misfire and missed gear argument is such an edge case that's silly.

I'm not 100% sure I agree with Mike, but I don't have any logical reasons why I don't, and I certainly don't agree with misfires and missed gear stuff.

[Mike Harte]

If one sits back for a moment and thinks about it logically, then there can be no reason why a following car needs to be as close as 2.54 cms (1 inch in old money) behind the car in front unless it is to destabilise it by giving it a "kiss".

The driver at the back can't go over or under the car in front, nor can it even attempt to go left or right to pass without touching the car in front at some point. In fact, for the very reason that the following driver has effectively boxed him/herself in, it means that the driver in front can actually afford to slow down fractionally.

I don't see the point of it.

[S griffin]

Well if we over policed we end up getting processional racing

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

If one sits back for a moment and thinks about it logically, then there can be no reason why a following car needs to be as close as 2.54 cms (1 inch in old money) behind the car in front unless it is to destabilise it by giving it a "kiss".

The driver at the back can't go over or under the car in front, nor can it even attempt to go left or right to pass without touching the car in front at some point. In fact, for the very reason that the following driver has effectively boxed him/herself in, it means that the driver in front can actually afford to slow down fractionally.

I don't see the point of it.

you dont see the point of a driver following a car as close as possible and no driver can possibly make a pass without touching if they are following so closely

ok i give up. youve defeated me

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

If one sits back for a moment and thinks about it logically, then there can be no reason why a following car needs to be as close as 2.54 cms (1 inch in old money) behind the car in front unless it is to destabilise it by giving it a "kiss".

The driver at the back can't go over or under the car in front, nor can it even attempt to go left or right to pass without touching the car in front at some point. In fact, for the very reason that the following driver has effectively boxed him/herself in, it means that the driver in front can actually afford to slow down fractionally.

I don't see the point of it.

I'm with you Mike. Being up someones rear end isn't going to help much, and is likely to hinder an attempt to pull out to try and pass. A rapid steering input by the rear most car is potentially going to bring about contact. And that contact will take momentum from the rear car, thus hindering the passing move.

Touching is damned useful for drafting, especially on a straight, but is likely to bring tears before bedtime on twisty bits.

P.S. I am the sort of bar steward who takes an especially dim view of it on public roads.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

OK then, if that's the case then I'll stand corrected.
I got the impression from what I heard on the TV commentary on Sunday, and what I'd read since then, that the rules relating to 'push to pass' had been revised for this year, or at least it had been made perfectly clear to the drivers at the meeting that they would be enforced more strongly this year.

It was first introduced to the drivers in April 2017. http://www.btcc.net/2017/04/15/new-driving-standards-directive-issued/

[porsche962fan]

can this pointless discussion finally die ? specially when Chilton himself let it go

[Alfisti]

Well we could get back to Sams TBL....