Indycar News & Rumors.

[10TENTHS]

Originally Posted by Salamus

My view on this topic is if Indycar (or any other body) wants manufacturer involvement, then they also have to allow those manufacturers to make upgrades throughout the season. At least give manufacturers one or two accepted updates per year. If they completely freeze the aero kits at the beginning of the season then they get into the mess they are in now. You also bring up a good point regarding testing. As for money...that ship sailed a while ago with the announcement of the aero kits.

Curtailing the overall number of test days was wrong, I'll agree there.

However, all parties agreed to a development freeze at the start of the 2015 season. That isn't Indycar's fault - it was something the teams and manufacturers signed up to, to avoid a never-ending arms race with the higher costs it entails.

[Salamus]

I know that both manufacturers agreed to it and now Honda, its teams, and their sponsors are regretting it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Salamus

My view on this topic is if Indycar (or any other body) wants manufacturer involvement, then they also have to allow those manufacturers to make upgrades throughout the season. At least give manufacturers one or two accepted updates per year. If they completely freeze the aero kits at the beginning of the season then they get into the mess they are in now. You also bring up a good point regarding testing. As for money...that ship sailed a while ago with the announcement of the aero kits.

But now, Indycar are in trouble. If they don't do anything, the Honda teams will get angry. If they allow Honda to upgrade their kits, Chevy will get angry.

If the money ship sailed with the announcement of aero kits, it's obvious the IRL didn't do a feasibility study, or an adequate one, with regards to the cost of the kits and testing them in the first place.

[10TENTHS]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If the money ship sailed with the announcement of aero kits, it's obvious the IRL didn't do a feasibility study, or an adequate one, with regards to the cost of the kits and testing them in the first place.

They were delayed for 3 years already. If anything, we've been blindsided by how Pratt&Miller outsmarted HPD\Wirth despite having only GT racing experience to draw from.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

They were delayed for 3 years already. If anything, we've been blindsided by how Pratt&Miller outsmarted HPD\Wirth despite having only GT racing experience to draw from.

I know there was a delay primarily because of the increased cost.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ra...aero-kit-plan/

I noticed Nick Wirth's involvement with HPD. Not wanting to give too detailed a history, Wirth was a bright, bushy tailed, young aerodynamicist at March Engineering in the late '80s, responsible for aero concepts, schematics and design of wind tunnel model components, for their 1988 and '89 Adrian Newey designed F1 cars. On leaving March, Max Mosley and Wirth setup Simtek Engineering. The subsequent Simtek F1 project failed in 1995, after just one and a half season's and Simtek Engineering went bust.

After Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne left Benetton for Ferrari, Wirth became chief designer but with no notable success. In 2009, as Sir Richard Branson set up Virgin Racing, Wirth designed the debut car for 2010, the VR-01 entirely with CFD. The car was four seconds off the pace, so in June 2011, with no improvement, Virgin fired Wirth and stopped using only CFD. I wonder if this is more of the same?

[GTRMagic]

Honda Team Owners Not Happy

...and worried that Honda may choose not to continue



Would the series *really* go back to the bespoke DW12?

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Would the series *really* go back to the bespoke DW12?

I'd vote yes if the other option is Honda leaving the series. And if the aero kit requirement is the thing that keeps other engine manufacturers away from the series, then I can't see any better option than going back to the original DW12.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Honda Team Owners Not Happy

...and worried that Honda may choose not to continue



Would the series *really* go back to the bespoke DW12?

Not the sort of article one wants to read.

I may have got this totally wrong but I always understood that although Chevy and Honda were producing their own kits for their respective teams, using their kits wasn't mandatory and a team could use the original DW12, if it so wished. If that is the case why not let the Honda teams revert to the original DW12?

Alternatively, IndyCar will be introducing a new chassis in 2018, so in the interest of keeping Honda happy, have all the teams go back to the original DW12, otherwise if Honda leave, I fear that will be it for IndyCar.

[GTRMagic]

An alternate idea is to allow the use the Chevy kits on the Honda-powered cars.

That sounds like something that could be negotiated, and nobody loses face

[Salamus]

Honda is definitely putting pressure on the series to let them update the aero kit. Regardless, I don't see Honda leaving Indycar. The only other program they have to work with is their LMP2 machine which is an even worse debacle.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Not the sort of article one wants to read.

I may have got this totally wrong but I always understood that although Chevy and Honda were producing their own kits for their respective teams, using their kits wasn't mandatory and a team could use the original DW12, if it so wished. If that is the case why not let the Honda teams revert to the original DW12?

Alternatively, IndyCar will be introducing a new chassis in 2018, so in the interest of keeping Honda happy, have all the teams go back to the original DW12, otherwise if Honda leave, I fear that will be it for IndyCar.

Teams can use their manufacturer's aero kit or the base DW12 kit. However, from what I have read, both manufacturer kits are far more competitive.

Going back to the DW12 kit is an interesting option. On one hand, all the cars are competitive again and costs go down...and the majority of people won't notice the difference. On the other, this whole year would have been a colossal waste of money. Personally, I would give it a few more years.

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

An alternate idea is to allow the use the Chevy kits on the Honda-powered cars.

That sounds like something that could be negotiated, and nobody loses face

Honda should might as well make a commercial telling people how Chevrolet is the superior company with the superior models. Using Chevy's kits would be a slap in the face.

[GTRMagic]

Its a Pratt & Miller kit isnt it, funded by Chevrolet.

The Honda engine is not top of the pops either.

Sounds like a clock is ticking...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Honda should might as well make a commercial telling people how Chevrolet is the superior company with the superior models. Using Chevy's kits would be a slap in the face.

Looking at it like that, haven't the last three and a half seasons been more or less that?

In its first season, the Chevy powered DW12 won 11 of 15 races and every season since, Chevrolet has won the Manufacturers' Cup and Honda have only had one driver win the Driver's Championship in a Honda powered car, Scott Dixon in 2013.

If Honda were to use the Chevy aero-kits, it would be more like rubbing salt into the wound rather than a slap in the face.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Its a Pratt & Miller kit isnt it, funded by Chevrolet.

The Honda engine is not top of the pops either.

Sounds like a clock is ticking...

Many Honda teams have said that their engine is just as good if not a bit better than Chevy's. They have said that they can be competitive if they get the set-up right but it's a lot more difficult with the Honda.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Looking at it like that, haven't the last three and a half seasons been more or less that?

Yes and no. It's obvious that Chevy have been the better of the two since they rejoined the series, but it hasn't been by a landslide. In the Indy 500, which is arguably bigger than the championship, both are tied at 2. And like you said, Chevy has two championships to Honda's 1. This has been the first year with one clearly dominating the other in terms of performance.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Many Honda teams have said that their engine is just as good if not a bit better than Chevy's. They have said that they can be competitive if they get the set-up right but it's a lot more difficult with the Honda.

I didn't think there was an issue with the Honda engine and I haven't read anything that suggests, or says there is. In that Fox Sports article, Michael Andretti says: "If we had last year's car, we would have won Indy because we had the power to do it." and he's not the sort of guy to make stuff up.

Originally Posted by Salamus

Yes and no. It's obvious that Chevy have been the better of the two since they rejoined the series, but it hasn't been by a landslide. In the Indy 500, which is arguably bigger than the championship, both are tied at 2. And like you said, Chevy has two championships to Honda's 1. This has been the first year with one clearly dominating the other in terms of performance.

If you take into account the significance of the 500 and Honda's two wins there in 2012, 2014 and Dixon's championship, then fair enough, it isn't a landslide by Chevrolet. However, this season it's almost a certainty Chevrolet will make a clean sweep of it but that sort of domination, has always been a part of motorsport, whatever series, so I think Honda are being a little disingenuous. So even though things haven't gone their way this season, who's to say they won't be able to turn things round for nest season?

I wonder though if this is more to do with Honda and motorsport in general? They've returned to F1 with McLaren, this year and the whole thing has been fraught from the start. Therefore, to be woefully under performing in both series, is not good for brand Honda and something needs to be done.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

Maybe F1 2003? Montoya did have a strong run that season. His results don't reflect how well he drove - his car broke on him at the A1-Ring and Suzuka while leading.

Or did he broke the engine? Fangio said you should treat the car like la woman: with care and love. If you were rude to the car, she would drop you.

(Nah, I remember that early 2000s BMW F1 engines were quite fragile.)

[NaBUru38]

I don't think that Honda cars are so uncompetitive, especially if comapred with F1, where Honda are doing a very poor job.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Sam Schmidt

Both manufacturers -- 24 months ago -- would have rather put this money into a proper TV program. It was a unilateral decision on the league to do this and I never saw a reason from the series why they are doing it; we are just doing it.

I can't agree more with that. The old bodykit was great, manufactureres din't really need to build their own to promote IndyCar, they nneded better media coverage.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I didn't think there was an issue with the Honda engine and I haven't read anything that suggests, or says there is. In that Fox Sports article, Michael Andretti says: "If we had last year's car, we would have won Indy because we had the power to do it." and he's not the sort of guy to make stuff up.

We're saying the same thing here. Honda's power is not the issue.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

So even though things haven't gone their way this season, who's to say they won't be able to turn things round for nest season?

Exactly. That's why I don't think they will leave. The real issue is sponsorship dollars for the teams. They have to somehow convince sponsors that Honda will get better.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I wonder though if this is more to do with Honda and motorsport in general? They've returned to F1 with McLaren, this year and the whole thing has been fraught from the start. Therefore, to be woefully under performing in both series, is not good for brand Honda and something needs to be done.

It might. But they need some sort of North American exposure, don't they? That is why I said a couple posts ago that besides Indycar, all they got is an LMP2 for NA competition.

If they want to ditch everything and focus entirely on F1, I would say that is a huge risk. Mercedes is dominating there and it will take Honda at least a couple years to catch up. They have a much better chance of recovery in Indycar.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I can't agree more with that. The old bodykit was great, manufactureres din't really need to build their own to promote IndyCar, they nneded better media coverage.

The reason for the aero-kits was two fold. Firstly, the IRL, thought if the same chassis could look visually different, it would remove the spec aspect and increase interest for fans and prospective fans. Secondly, for branding and marketing, Chevrolet wanted their engine in a package that looked different from the Honda package.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The reason for the aero-kits was two fold. Firstly, the IRL, thought if the same chassis could look visually different, it would remove the spec aspect and increase interest for fans and prospective fans. Secondly, for branding and marketing, Chevrolet wanted their engine in a package that looked different from the Honda package.

Does Chevrolet get any kudos for beating a competitor not at the top of its game?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Does Chevrolet get any kudos for beating a competitor not at the top of its game?

That question could be asked about any team, competing against any team, in any sport and sometimes the underdog wins.

As for Chevrolet getting any kudos for beating a competitor, I think they just plain want to beat Honda.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That question could be asked about any team, competing against any team, in any sport and sometimes the underdog wins.

As for Chevrolet getting any kudos for beating a competitor, I think they just plain want to beat Honda.

I agree with the first part, but this is one on one. Chevrolet v's Honda

Whatever happens in the next little while to appease Honda will likely have an impact on Chevrolet. They could get punished for doing a better job

Its a no-win situation...

[rwintle]

Toronto Drivers' Party announced for Friday, June 12 at Muzik nightclub. It looks like $23 gets you in the door... which for a place that usually has super-expensive bottle service, seems like a good deal, comparatively speaking.

http://www.hondaindytoronto.com/more...eturn-to-muzik

Tix here:

http://muzikclubs.com/evt/1709043912...-drivers-party

[10TENTHS]

Another ex-F1 driver joins the Indy Lights championship: http://www.carlin.co.uk/news/indy-lights/4128-2/

[rwintle]

Originally Posted by 10TENTHS

Another ex-F1 driver joins the Indy Lights championship: http://www.carlin.co.uk/news/indy-lights/4128-2/

w00t!


Also - one-day sale today for select grandstand tickets in Toronto. Splash screen on the event homepage:
http://www.hondaindytoronto.com