Car on Fire!

**Snapper Baz** · 13 May 2003, 20:44 (Ref:598300)

Question time...perhaps my good friend Mr.Green could answer? A car pulls off on the wrong side of the circuit, ie: the opposite side of the track from a marshals post and/or perhaps a fair distance from a manned post. The car catches fire with the driver unable to exit and it seems obvious that it would take a few moments before a crew can get to the scene from the other side of the track or from other posts...as a person trackside, could I/would I (yes, i have been trained)be able to tackle that blaze with the fire bottle I'm standing next to or should I wait a few moments-possibly minutes before other help arrives whilst watching the driver in serious trouble? This is a hypotheticle question and over to the lads/lassie's in orange!

Pike · 13 May 2003, 20:55 (Ref:598309)

What capacity are you there in Snapper Baz??

Richard Sneader · 13 May 2003, 21:25 (Ref:598337)

Baz If this was a true senario I personally would thank you for your help. You can not watch someone trapped in this situation burn alive and any help untill marshals arrive is better than no help. Any flack would be dealt with after but I think any one in their right mind would not question what happned. And I do know that you would not get in the marshals way when they arrive Baz.
Are you sure you know what end of the hose the powdery stuff comes out of!!!!.
Cheers Baz are you at Brands this week?.
Rich S.

Stuart Hill · 13 May 2003, 21:48 (Ref:598348)

The only time, in my experience, that outsiders cause a problem is after the "fire" is out and the mechanic turns up whilst we are dealing with moving the car.

If I was ever in the situation that you describe, my first response would be "thank-you" very quickly followed by "you wanna help us clean-up??"

I am not too proud to say I can cover everything, I CAN'T !!!

But as a warning to anyone else reading this...........

if you are tempted to help, please make sure of your abilities and the dangers around. None of us marshals would like to have a perfectly ok driver and a dead speckie/mechanic!!!! Help us by all means but please remember that we have been trained for these situations and as such, we understand the dangers at any particular post.

Steve Tarrant · 13 May 2003, 22:00 (Ref:598351)

Well, the MSA blue book mandates that all circuits are covered by sufficient rescue vehicles so that all parts of the circuit can be reached within, I believe (but correct me if I'm wrong with the number), 90 seconds. Therefore if the marshals aren't able to safely cross the track, the observer should be requesting that Race Control does an immediate scramble of the nearest rescue vehicle to the scene.

I know 90 seconds sounds a lot, and when you can only watch seems forever, but don't forget the driver is wearing multiple layers of fire retardent clothing that has to withstand combustion for a considerable time. He also has onboard fire extinguishers in the car, so any effects should be minimised.

Doc Hollywood · 13 May 2003, 22:13 (Ref:598354)

Steve, that is the silliest thing I have ever heard, if you where a spectator and you knew what to do to save a life then you would do it.

The only situation that it would be a problem would be if the marshals seen it as an un-safe situation and purposly didnt approach for personal safety, in that case it would be a gung-hoe spectator with no sense.

I would not rely on 3-layer nomex to stop the fire, overalls only bide about 30 seconds in a fire after that your toast, not to mention the fact that the driver may in-hale super-heated gas in that time causing respiritory failure.

Fire is our No.1 enemy, it is the one thing we protect ourselves most against on track, it is imperitive that it is put out strait away.

Doc

**Snapper Baz** · 13 May 2003, 22:50 (Ref:598367)

I don't want anybody falling out over this but keep the banter going...It has occured to me IF something like this happened what would be the repercushions afterwards...though lets hope it never does...thinking about it though,I seem to have read recently in Autosport about a F3 test where a driver rolled so far off the track that nobody noticed...a driver came into the pits and told a team member who then allerted the medical crew on site to go to his aid!...that is a different thing altogether though. I will be at Brands Sat/Sun' though in the afternoon only...will have to bring a few CART pics with me.

**Woolley** · 13 May 2003, 23:56 (Ref:598386)

Interesting question. I too would say thank you. With a driver unable to escape and a fire taking hold, anything that doesn't place you in danger would assist the driver, and that's what we're all there for.

serverbrainfailure · 14 May 2003, 07:27 (Ref:598512)

shouldn't be relevant
if there is a car fire that is too far for marshals to reach safely without crossing the track - the race would/should/had bloody better be red flagged immediately. However, if the situation described was to come about & in the few seconds before the marshals can get there - a photographer, member of circuit staff etc who knows what do do was to help out - then so be it, we wouldn't specifically encourage them - but in a bad situation it's human nature to do what you can to help someone.

EvilPumpkin · 14 May 2003, 08:04 (Ref:598532)

I think the first bit of fallout would be "why did that person have access to the area, but the marshals didn't"

However, I have my own cynical faith that the blame would be placed squarely with the Marshals in any case.

As everyone else has said, if you're sure you know what you're doing and you really have no other choice, then I don't see how you could do anything other than go for it. What you have to remember is that you're no good to anyone if you become part of the accident though. Trying to fight a fire with no gloves on could be an issue - particularly for someone who makes their living using their hands! You wouldn't be insured if you were injured either - although I don't believe anyone faced with a life or death situation is going to worry about that - at least until afterwards!

PPE and training aside, my main concern is the pandora's box it opens.

A fire this week and the relevant hero - all fine and dandy. The driver is lucky enough to get someone who knew what they were doing and did it.

But then some other muppet with no training/experience/common sense decides that it's up to them next week. And they decide to pull a driver out of a car - unfortunately, the driver is injured........

There's no right answer to this one really is there

**Snapper Baz** · 14 May 2003, 08:21 (Ref:598540)

I very much doubt that getting to the point of getting a driver out will ever happen at a UK circuit as marshals/medical crew would soon be at the scene whether that be testing/raceday or whatever though it has happened in the past abroad.

JimW · 14 May 2003, 08:48 (Ref:598548)

As the guideline figure for the survival of a driver in a fierce petrol fire (in full Nomex etc.) is 20-30 seconds, the rescue unit option is not the answer.

Baz, I think the overwhelming reaction is that if one thinks that one can do some good and help save life, then get in there and try. I would do so in comparable circumstances at a circuit or elsewhere.

OK then you may have to deal with people who try and give you a hard time afterwards but we all have to live with ourselves.

As a photographer you are going to be aware of the risks to yourself (and to others; remember the driver killed when a marshal ran across the track unwisely a few years ago).

Regards

Jim

paul.hickman · 14 May 2003, 08:55 (Ref:598550)

Not for the first time, I agree with Jim! Extreme circumstances call for extreme (but calculated) measures. In the aftermath you would be criticised by some - but applauded by others...

**Stephen Green** · 14 May 2003, 09:15 (Ref:598562)

To answer some of EP's points...

At some meetings there may not be sufficient marshals to cover the part of the track furthest from the dedicated marshals post. That does not mean that a photographer doesn't have the right to be there. Provided he has signed on like the rest of us, he/she knows where and where not they are allowed to be.

I tend to agree with Richards answer early in the thread. If the photographer was the nearest and the drivers life were in danger who in their right mind would stop him/her giving assistance. It's a no brainer in my opinion.

EvilPumpkin · 14 May 2003, 09:25 (Ref:598567)

Um I have a lot of experience in working circuits that don't have sufficient marshals. In fact until the first time I marshalled in the UK, I don't think I'd ever been on a post with more than 3 marshals - including a flagger. And that was a good day.

I'm not suggesting that a photographer (or any signed on person regardless of function) doesn't have the right to be anywhere - and I'm not sure where you got that idea from in the first place.

I'm simply saying that after the fact, it's usually a question of "why weren't there any marshals there". It never seems to be a question of "why was this meeting run when there weren't enough marshals to safely cover the circuit".

I have no issue with anyone taking necessary action to save a life - provided they can do so without sacrificing their own or making the situation worse - in which case it's a difficult call. But I thought we were not just talking about what you should do, it's also about what you shouldn't do and what the likely consequences of such an action would be.

JR Ewing · 14 May 2003, 09:37 (Ref:598576)

As I driver, if I think my car may be alight or may catch light I am going to park it less than one ince from a marshalls post NOT half a mile away!

I have had this happen more than once over the years and this has worked very well. I have seen mugs who pull over in a panic miles from the marshalls and then watch while their pride and joy is well and truly ruined.

Hollywood exploding cars have many people to answer to...

BFC · 14 May 2003, 09:45 (Ref:598580)

in theory both sides of the track should be manned by marshalls spread out around trackhopefully easily seen by drivers,failing that mobile fire vehicles placed round track with good vision in both distances in case of cars catching fire getting dispatched when needed,,,,,,,,thats how it works here in OZ anyhow

**Stephen Green** · 14 May 2003, 09:53 (Ref:598583)

I think the point EP and myself are making is that there are occasions (obviously more in Ireland, yes EP?) when meetings are run with what we would consider to be insufficient marshals. In those cases you probably don't have the manpower to put marshals at places where you might expect to see them. Mr Ewing makes a good point, try and park your car close to the marshals post, it's no fun running carrying an extinguisher I can assure you!

EvilPumpkin · 14 May 2003, 10:01 (Ref:598594)

Depends on your definition of insufficient. With the support of the Rescue Unit, we get by. But at the same time, the days when we could field marshals on either side of the track at a post are long gone unfortunately.

flying muppet · 14 May 2003, 10:57 (Ref:598616)

How is the mythical spectator going to climb through / over all of the debris fencing that seems to be sprouting up everywhere?

As for any (legal) ramifications after the event, as long as it was clear that you were acting with the best of intentions, because it could be classed as 'immediate life saving', then I would think you would be congratulated for your actions (let's hope so, anyway).

**Stephen Green** · 14 May 2003, 11:18 (Ref:598628)

I think Baz's original question stated that he was a photographer and not a spectator, therefore he would automatically have access to the live side of the debris fence/armco.

scorch · 14 May 2003, 11:51 (Ref:598646)

Playing devils advocate, what if the 'non-marshall' made matters worse, and the driver unfortunately died anyway.
Would the family consider this action acceptable and if not bring proceedings against the 'good samaritan' or circuit?

The scenario isn't that far fetched, last year a porshe pulled off at silverstone on the inside of copse ablaze, there was no marshall on the inside at all, (well not until you got to beckets), the driver got out ok and the guy on the breakdown put the fire out (i believe with help from the rescue unit) but he has no fire training.
In fact now that I think about it he had more incidents to deal with last year that most marshalls.

EvilPumpkin · 14 May 2003, 11:53 (Ref:598648)

Interesting point - we're all aware of the nasty things powder extinguishers can do to car engines. But what if someone who isn't aware of that uses one to put out a fire and kills the engine in the process?

**Stephen Green** · 14 May 2003, 12:04 (Ref:598660)

I think we are treading the deadful boards of law suits in the scenarios you have mentioned. Under 'normal' circumstances I would have thought the driver was the No1 priority, once he is ouit of the car and safe I would suggest that anyone other than marshals/rescue crew etc who are 'signed on' touch the car/engine.

**Stephen Green** · 14 May 2003, 12:04 (Ref:598661)

Sorry the above should have read " treading the dreadful boards etc etc etc"

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