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8 Jun 2017, 10:07 (Ref:3739442) | #526 | ||
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It has to be said Hondas approach to F1 has been shambolic......I personally know several ex Mercedes powertrain engineers that were poached by Ferrari and now work in Italy on the Ferrari F1 engine and hybrid system.......this is how you succeed in F1: poach your rivals key staff - simple.......this is Hondas down-fall, cultural differences, for the record, I have nothing against the Japanese, I find them lovely people to work with, but I do find they are incredibly regimented in their working principles.
it seems beneath Hondas cultural honour to do this......I'm sorry but Gilles Simon is nobody and knows nothing about hybrid systems or turbocharged engines, he is from a gone era of NA V8 and V10 engines, I believe he was the guy pushing the axial turbine, and look what that did. |
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8 Jun 2017, 11:22 (Ref:3739453) | #527 | ||||
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The Renault is currently the weakest option of possible replacements (ignoring a 'new' manufacturer coming in). I can't see them wanting to go for that. |
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8 Jun 2017, 11:35 (Ref:3739455) | #528 | |||
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8 Jun 2017, 13:31 (Ref:3739467) | #529 | ||
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McLaren-Audi???.....not this old chestnut again ......but never say never
http://www.autosport.com/premium/fea...tle-mans-plans but true to their word, now Bernie has gone, Audi may enter F1???.... Last edited by knighty; 8 Jun 2017 at 13:59. |
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8 Jun 2017, 14:06 (Ref:3739474) | #530 | |
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If McLaren were to change engine supplier I suspect they would need to do it for next season or wait until the new rules come in 2020 (or is that 2021?) as running a different power unit for one season would not really make sense. On the other hand running anything other than a Honda would seem like a bonus.
At this stage would Honda be not better to dust down a few of their 30 year old V6's and adapt them to the current rules, I seem to remember they were powerful fuel efficient and RELIABLE. |
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8 Jun 2017, 14:35 (Ref:3739481) | #531 | ||||
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They clearly have reached outside of the team early on (Simon and maybe others). They have been trying to poach resources from other teams (publicly reported including options for working out of the center in UK and/or Japan). The questions is when did they start trying to poach? They are likely guilty of many things, but per your comments, the only one that applies is choosing poorly (Simon) when it comes to consultants. I am not saying there are not some cultural issues going on (either Japanese, Honda, or both), but another potential issue that may make it hard to be successful is the language barrier plus geographic differences. So when trying to poach, it is likely a much harder sell for maybe a typical engineer who is based out of Europe. It would be interesting to know how successful they have been with their poaching. From my reading (and I could be wrong, because nobody agrees on what is going on) my opinion as to what happened is... Honda is hampered by many things. Geography, language, corporate and/or society cultural differences among others. When it comes down to this particular 2017 engine project there were probably other issues that made it a trainwreck. When did they actually start work? Did the have the right resources? Was it an achievable goal, or did they screw it up due to poor management? Likely some or all of those combined. I suspect poor management of the effort is to blame. It's relatively well known that they focused on single cylinder R&D engines for quite awhile. I have seen disagreements between people that I think are truly knowledgeable about the need (or not) for single cylinder test engines in this scenario. I am not an engine designer, but I can imagine using them early on to prove out concepts would be useful. But it seems that Honda spent too much time doing those experiments before they moves to a full v6 test engine. They also may have relied too much on simulations to try to expose issues in the design process vs. allocating enough time to find those on physical test engines. And/or they may just have done a bad job in their simulation and physical testing. The end result was an engine that seems to have a variety of issues that impacts performance and reliability. Stuff that should have been caught and addressed a long time ago. I am reading that the potential Canadian update while "large" was not a significant rethink on the design, but rather a large collection of minor improvements. That the idea was that maybe 1+1+1+.... = some large number. Maybe internal testing showed that in reality it all didn't add up to enough to make it worth deploying. And that word is a larger rework of the entire top end of the engine is in the works (redesign and not just tweaks). And that work is not ready. They are discovering and solving problems now that should have been done months ago. To Zak Brown's comments about Honda being "lost". I don't think we can know the truth on that. I do suspect there has been a lot of wishful thinking (or lack of honesty) from both sides of that partnership and poor communication. But probably more on the Honda side. Quote:
Right now McLaren sounds like RBR when they were slagging Renault. Only those inside Renault can say if that type of public embarrassment from a partner actually helped or hindered them in the long run. Richard |
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8 Jun 2017, 17:16 (Ref:3739502) | #532 | |
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Well this season was now or never for them and they were looking good after regular top tens last season, but now it's like they've forgotten everything from last season. What a waste
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8 Jun 2017, 18:16 (Ref:3739517) | #533 | ||
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Alonso seems to be willing to give Honda until September so after the summer break....which in hindsight was probably always a more realistic time frame for major improvement.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...summer-915635/ maybe a function of me using the motorsports.com site more and more for my news but (a little tin foil hat time) i feel like they are playing a different sort of game in the media then RB did with Renault. Zak Brown and RB both have large media companies to use to spread their message but whereas RB were heavy handed with Renault, Mclaren seem to be employing a more nuanced approach...legitimate criticism while still promoting the Honda brand. no doubt Alonso at Indy contributed greatly to this but overall i feel like Honda have still benefited more for their partnership with Mclaren, at least publicly, then the 'public embarrassment' caused by their useless F1 program would suggest. anyways, im inclined to think along the lines of Alonso that Honda still has time to sort things out. cultural issues may play a part, but if culture is important then so too should history be taken into account and Honda have too much of it to be written off. |
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8 Jun 2017, 18:57 (Ref:3739523) | #534 | ||
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But it seems if they do imorove by Spa it might be too late to keep Alonso another year?
I am sure he is alredy sounding out the possible seats for next year. Noticed Lewis being very deferential to Fernando in the conference. Is it still beyond chance to see them pair up again? |
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10 Jun 2017, 00:01 (Ref:3739827) | #535 | |||
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Zak Brown has made some comments on McLarens 2018 plans. (BBC Sport)
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Looks like McLaren have, or will soon reach that deadline that I mentioned HERE. I reckon this is what will happen in the near future: 1) Honda will announce that they are ending their partnership with McLaren. Not the other way around as most think will happen. 2) An agreement between FOM and all the teams will allow McLaren to use Mercedes engines from 2018, as a result of force majeure clause. 3) Fernando Alonso will be offered a 11th hour contract to drive for another team. He will not accept, and leave F1. 4) Sauber/Honda will be a regular podium finisher in 2018. 5) We will see Alonso once again. |
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10 Jun 2017, 05:50 (Ref:3739865) | #536 | |||
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Eric Boullier has had his say on that fork Zak Brown found on the road.
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15 Jun 2017, 13:00 (Ref:3741625) | #537 | |||
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From Nigel Roebuck's Fifth Column this week:
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
15 Jun 2017, 13:54 (Ref:3741642) | #538 | ||
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Well, even Minardi in their heyday would be able to ferret out a point or two during a season -- and that was when points only went to sixth. Ok, attrition was a far bigger thing back then but I think the point as to how Mclaren have slumped is still broadly salient.
I think Alonso may go back to Renault. Honda may shower Sauber with compo money and simply leave the sport. Or get Mugen to maintain the plant for Sauber if that organisation is still fit to do that. One other alternative is to buy out Sauber as they did with BAR. Honda have actually proved themselves as chassis builders -- theirs won under a Brawn banner. They just can't seem to build F1 engines anymore. |
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15 Jun 2017, 15:06 (Ref:3741663) | #539 | |
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I saw that Fifth Column too and it is clear Honda aren't the force they once were. Even the Honda Earth Cars were less of a embarrassment than this. At least it was slow, but more reliable
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15 Jun 2017, 22:49 (Ref:3742037) | #540 | ||
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To me it's a great shame. With the racing pedigree that Honda has, you'd think that whilst it might take a little while to sort out a power plant under new regulations, they would at least be there or thereabouts once sorted.
To date, they've been the only Japanese manufacturer that has succeeded in F1 but they now seem to be heading the way of an abject failure. |
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
16 Jun 2017, 12:55 (Ref:3742195) | #541 | ||
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16 Jun 2017, 13:24 (Ref:3742206) | #542 | ||
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Is there a chance a Mercedes engine could find its way into a McLaren after the summer break?
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Happy David Thexton Day, 21st March 2003 “I am not uncertain” - Dollar Bill Stern, Billions “Fear stimulates my imagination” - Don Draper, Mad Men “Everybody Lies” - Dr Gregory House |
16 Jun 2017, 14:28 (Ref:3742220) | #543 | |||
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1. The car would need to be totally re-engineered and probably require a different transmission in order to change the power unit. (Not insurmountable for someone like McLaren, but not a simple task either). 2. I wouldn't have thought Mercedes would be very happy having their engines so easily scrutinised by another manufacturer. If I remember correctly when McLaren moved to Honda initially Mercedes made sure that their equipment was well out of the way before Honda personnel arrived. 3. Surely there would have to be unanimous agreement from all of the other teams to allow McLaren to change PU supplier mid-season, (don't teams have to nominate their supplier before the end of May the previous year?). I really can't see all of the teams agreeing to this... Having said all of that, I would love to see it happen and find out just how good a car the McLaren is! |
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16 Jun 2017, 14:48 (Ref:3742226) | #544 | |||
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
16 Jun 2017, 15:09 (Ref:3742234) | #545 | |
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16 Jun 2017, 21:18 (Ref:3742334) | #546 | |
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After the last 3 years years they can but dream to play second fiddle to Mercedes.
I mean, it'd be a massive improvement over their current situation in any case. |
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16 Jun 2017, 21:43 (Ref:3742342) | #547 | |||
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Maybe the wise heads within Honda from the earlier engine programs have moved on or been ignored, or possibly cleaned out after their own team didn't meet expectations? Seems to me that during the first season of the current engine program, it would have been obvious to Honda that there were major issues and that radical steps were needed but they just seem to have kept plodding on doing things "the Honda way". Their most successful engine programs did things in a more "race team" way with operations in the UK, maybe there is a lesson there too. I don't think that the "token" engine update system is helping (never been a fan of it myself) but clearly their problems go way beyond that. Without some kind of "Eureka!" moment it's hard to see how they'll still be with McLaren next year and without some radical change to how they operate, it's hard to see them being in F1 at all beyond that. |
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“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
17 Jun 2017, 01:10 (Ref:3742390) | #548 | ||
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They'd have undermine their "good car" to cram in the customer Merc in the car designed for the Honda for the rest of this year. I don't think there's any mileage in that kind of hassle and expense.
If they could bring their 2018 forward and race it just before the end of this season -- that'd be a remarkable testing head start. But that's academic because they haven't nearly progressed that far. The cost of getting rid of free engines to buy some expensive customers is one heck of a sobering experience. And the customer 'plants are highly unlikely of the quality to beat the works cars, so they are still destined for a patchy future. It's mighty a tight bind they are in and there isn't a clear pathway out of there. The partnership with Honda threatens to undermine the entire future of Mclaren. |
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If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse. -Henry Ford |
17 Jun 2017, 02:56 (Ref:3742406) | #549 | ||
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Honda's F1 engine program, as it is currently, would be a dream job for an engineer involved with the powertrain of Mercedes, or Ferrari. The likes of Andy Cowell would the ultimate candidate for that role at Honda F1. But there's no way Mercedes would let him go. And Andy Cowell is not interested anyway. But for any one of the "junior" powertrain engineers currently working with Mercedes or Ferrari, it would be a dream opportunity, and he/she would be a valuable asset to Honda F1 powertrains ATM.
Hypothetically speaking, let's say a junior powertrain engineer from either Mercedes or Ferrari was offered a job at Honda F1 Japan for a large sum of money. A year or so later the Honda engine is almost on par with the other three. Another year later it is equal or even beating Mercedes and Ferrari. That said junior engineer's reputation is now sky high, and he/she is now in high demand. It's a scenario that happens all the time in F1. Be it in powertrain, aerodynamics, suspension, etc. etc. It's how the ball roles and the engineers move up the scale. They take the knowledge they have of what works best at their old team and apply the same - or similar, at their new team. This has been the case for many a year. When Honda's engine program began, Honda was not interested in recruiting powertrain engineers with the know how from other manufacturers. They did not seek out engineers as is what usually happens in F1. Honda was then, apparently, offered the very scenario mentioned above by Mercedes towards the end of 2016, and again at the beginning of this year. Mercedes was willing to let a junior powertrain engineer (or two) go to work with Honda in Japan, strictly on the power unit side of things. Honda apparently did not take up Mercedes offer. A similar scenario happened in late 2014, when Ferrari, unlike Honda, actually sought to recruit powertrain engineers from Mercedes. Ferrari chased a few of the guys from Mercedes engine program, and did manage to get a signature (or two) for 2015. Mercedes did not block the engineer/s from leaving, and even let them go without any gardening leave, any restrictions, or signed agreements. I know there was talk in the F1 paddock about this time that this was somehow seen as 'best for the sport', and two of F1's old men were somehow involved. I know of a ex-junior Mercedes powertrain engineer who is now at Ferrari, and is no longer ranked as a "junior" engineer, and his (or hers) salary is almost double of what it was at Mercedes. It's just the way F1 works. And this is where Honda have failed to realise the reality of the sport. It's not like it's the first time Honda have been involved in F1, so it's really surprising that they still have not come to realise how things work. They have a very strange way of going about things. In F1, experience, knowledge and the ability to apply that experience and knowledge at a rapid rate is crucial. Honda will get there, and I have no doubts they will be a power player one day. But right now it seems like it's just a dream. 'The Power of Dreams', as their slogan says. The dream has turned into a nightmare for McLaren, and it would be a big surprise to see 'McLaren - Powered by Honda' on their engine covers in 2018. |
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17 Jun 2017, 03:09 (Ref:3742410) | #550 | |||
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On the supplying of works spec engines, the only time I can remember Mercedes not supplying works spec engines to a customer is after McLaren announced their deal with Honda. After that announcement Mercedes did not provide any updated engines for McLaren. Ferrari on the other hand have openly admitted that they don't supply 100% works spec engines to their customers. Even if the customer has absolutely no chance of beating the factory Ferrari team. |
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