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Old 8 Apr 2019, 06:01 (Ref:3896125)   #1
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[VASC19R9R10]WD40 Phillip Island Supersprint, 12-14 Apr

Phillip Island is aero country...

A place where the low drag, high downforce setup, accompanied by strong engine power, will be super competitive...

The expectation therefore is that this might be a full house Mustang track..

Or not..

Hard to know..

But not long til we find out...
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Old 9 Apr 2019, 06:46 (Ref:3896367)   #2
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
Phillip Island is aero country...

A place where the low drag, high downforce setup, accompanied by strong engine power, will be super competitive...

The expectation therefore is that this might be a full house Mustang track..

Or not..

Hard to know..

But not long til we find out...
Hell must be freezing over as I find myself agreeing with something one of the Walkinshaw family is saying.

https://www.motorsport.com/v8superca...nshaw/4366978/
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Old 9 Apr 2019, 10:14 (Ref:3896393)   #3
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Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
He's absolutely right.

We're at a crucial point where the technology is far ahead of the testing process. Some very clever people have managed to reverse-engineer the tests to design a car that fits them.
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Old 9 Apr 2019, 11:00 (Ref:3896400)   #4
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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
Some very clever people have managed to reverse-engineer the tests to design a car that fits them.
Lol, that's a funny way of saying "build a car to the rules"...

The test gives you a target: therefore you get the best performance possible (i.e., at untested conditions) while hitting the target. Seems like Engineering 101, nothing more than that!

I would more than welcome proper touring car rules where you start with the actual car, weld-in a roll cage and upgrade the suspension arms, engine, gearbox, differential while starting with the engine block and suspension points and type of the road car. Where you are given dimensional boxes for your front splitter and rear wing, rather than an aero target. Glass windows, and production panels all round! That would sure be a lot better IMO!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 9 Apr 2019 at 11:06.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 06:24 (Ref:3896525)   #5
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
I would more than welcome proper touring car rules where you start with the actual car, weld-in a roll cage and upgrade the suspension arms, engine, gearbox, differential while starting with the engine block and suspension points and type of the road car. Where you are given dimensional boxes for your front splitter and rear wing, rather than an aero target. Glass windows, and production panels all round! That would sure be a lot better IMO!
So you'd like:

1. Cars that are far less reliable than current
2. Cars that are more time consuming & expensive to repair and far less repairable than current (meaning more non-starters of racing due to damage
3. Literally neverending complaints of unfairness between makes, and domination by one make as one finds a loophole in the rules or is given extra freedoms

And probably most significantly:
4. Guaranteed fatality crashes

Really, if you want the above, watch TCR. They manage to more or less avoid point 4, by being slow.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 07:28 (Ref:3896537)   #6
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Nailed it.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 07:52 (Ref:3896541)   #7
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
So you'd like:
These:



But obviously with Mustang, Camaro and Infiniti Q60 instead of EBs and VPs (and the stroked out BMW 540i that SHOULD have been on the grid from the Gardner team!).

Your other points are a load of nonsense.

Rallying is from more dangerous than circuit racing, yet WRC works perfectly well with production bodyshells. A Toyota Yaris actually looks like and is based on a Yaris, a Citroen C3 actually looks like and is based on a C3, a Ford Fiesta actually looks like and is based on a Fiesta, same goes for the Hyundai i20.

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3. Literally neverending complaints of unfairness between makes, and domination by one make as one finds a loophole in the rules or is given extra freedoms
They have a lot of FIXED (same for everyone) freedoms under WRC compared to Group A obviously, and it works very well. Teams are actually allowed to go out and build the best possible car to the set of rules that are the same for everybody. No parity complaints, no balance of performance, close competition -- it's fantastic!



Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 10 Apr 2019 at 08:07.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 08:10 (Ref:3896544)   #8
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So the teams have to buy a $60K-$150K roadcar, strip it right back to a bare shell, acid dip it, seam weld it, put a cage in it, add in spefic-to-the car driveline components and suspension, and somehow you'll tell me that's more cost-effective as well as "better" than what we have now, and be able to acheive the parity that is cornerstone to the sport?

Nah.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 08:45 (Ref:3896552)   #9
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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
So the teams have to buy a $60K-$150K roadcar, strip it right back to a bare shell, acid dip it, seam weld it, put a cage in it, add in spefic-to-the car driveline components and suspension, and somehow you'll tell me that's more cost-effective as well as "better" than what we have now, and be able to acheive the parity that is cornerstone to the sport?
1. They buy a kit of pressings (floor pan, sill panel etc) and weld them together, not a complete car.

2. Yes, they did it this way before, they can do it again.

It works -- it actually removes the parity shennigans because you will be racing three cars that are fundamentally similar (Mustang, Camaro, Infiniti Q60), all with say 5.0L engines with a simple 8000rpm rev limit (knock yourself out on engine development! ).

They will be using production panels, standard suspension pickup points & wheelbase of each vehicle, have a clearly defined box to design their aero in, a clearly defined maximum wheel track -- and may the best team win. No "but he has that", "but, but, but I want to have that to". You are actually allowed to build the best car and best engine you can.

Don't you see how well the WRC example works!?

It actually fixes everything that is contrived, stifling and restrictive about the current rules. Rules like control wheels, control pedal boxes, control brakes and control camshafts have brought nothing positive to the sport. Costs are as high as ever -- the teams will always spend as much as they can find, so let's give them something useful to spend it on!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 10 Apr 2019 at 08:53.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 08:55 (Ref:3896555)   #10
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How are 3 different cars more similar than the three we have, where the only key differences are the outer skins and engines?
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 09:02 (Ref:3896556)   #11
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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
How are 3 different cars more similar than the three we have,
Well most obviously, they are all coupes, instead of a mid-size sedan, a mid-size hatch and a coupe...

Infinti Q60
Height 1395mm
Length 4690mm

Mustang
Height 1381mm
Length 4784mm

Camaro
Height 1380mm
Length 4840mm

As you can see the dimensions match up closely, especially in height.

As opposed to currently where the Altima and Commodore are extremely mismatched to the Mustang which has led to a so-called parity debacle (as well as a hideous race car). Though to be fair, if the Mustang bodywork package is actually ~80kg lighter than the Commodore bodywork package as reported (120kg ballast for Mustang vs 40kg ballast for Commodore), that is a significant difference! All-in-all, the mismatch has created an untenable farce and should have been handled properly during homologation...

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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
where the only key differences are the outer skins and engines?
So why are Nissan Altimas so heavily disadvantaged!? That is hardly a "cornerstone" level of parity is it!?

I think it's much better to set the same rules for everybody and may the best team win! It removes the parity shenanigans altogether, as everyone has the same rule book and same areas of developments to work with. Here is a box, design your aero within with a maximum of 2 wing elements (etc). It works in F1, in works in WRC, it is the way rules should be written -- free from farcical runway 'equalisation' exercises.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 09:44 (Ref:3896558)   #12
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It's a parity series.

That's what the catagory is trying to ensure.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 10:10 (Ref:3896563)   #13
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Supercars have been a step behind on this one for sure. The rules need to move with the cars, but I don't think it's broken. The ballast thing should have been a lot tighter. Going back to production car bodies will open up another can of worms for sure. pick out WRC yes they race mostly on dirt. F1 ok one manufacture gains a technological edge so wins all the races, the team mates fight over wins all session and the championship is decided with four rounds to go. Or do you go NASCAR, plastic body looks nothing like the road going car, but for the grill and headlight shape. works for them looking from afar? Then in saying all that, how long is the rear wheel drive Mustang Camaro or the like going to be around for?
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 10:32 (Ref:3896565)   #14
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It's a parity series. That's what the catagory is trying to ensure.
Seems to be failing Kelly Racing -- where is their parity?
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 10:48 (Ref:3896569)   #15
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They've allowed several aero revisions, composite panels, and have set them as the baseline for COG.

The Kellys need to work harder.
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 12:23 (Ref:3896588)   #16
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He's absolutely right.

We're at a crucial point where the technology is far ahead of the testing process. Some very clever people have managed to reverse-engineer the tests to design a car that fits them.
Which back in the days of Euro TC was a speciality of the Walkinshaws, to be fair. Those Rovers...
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 13:15 (Ref:3896595)   #17
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Which back in the days of Euro TC was a speciality of the Walkinshaws, to be fair. Those Rovers...
If you’ve not got it already I heartily recommend Allan Scott’s TWR and Rover’s SD1. Allan Scott managed Walkinshaw’ s engine department. Those Volvo rocker arms...
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 14:25 (Ref:3896607)   #18
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The Kellys need to work harder.
Yet Ford Performance DID work harder, and are not being allowed to enjoy the fruits of their hard work even though it was within the rules. How does that work!?

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allowed several aero revisions, composite panels, and have set them as the baseline
This nonsense, which is subject to bias, can be done away with simply by writing a set of rules that are the same for everyone and letting the teams go at it. No concessions, no revisions -- none of that farcical untenable nonsense!
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Old 10 Apr 2019, 20:26 (Ref:3896674)   #19
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Yet Ford Performance DID work harder, and are not being allowed to enjoy the fruits of their hard work even though it was within the rules. How does that work!?



This nonsense, which is subject to bias, can be done away with simply by writing a set of rules that are the same for everyone and letting the teams go at it. No concessions, no revisions -- none of that farcical untenable nonsense!
Did you had the same view last year when DJR put pressure on Supercars to have the rules changed so they could fit a composite roof skin? Twelve months later DJR exploit the same rule even further and now it should be left so they can enjoy the fruits of their work? Yes, that would be great if you're a ford fan, but not so good if you're not. A year of Mustangs winning all the races and taking up the whole front of the grid is bad for the sport. I'm a Holden fan, but I don't want to see Holden win all and every race, as I am a bigger fan of the sport.
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Old 11 Apr 2019, 00:57 (Ref:3896709)   #20
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Seems to be failing Kelly Racing -- where is their parity?
Failed Erebus with the Mercedes too!
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Old 11 Apr 2019, 08:07 (Ref:3896742)   #21
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Did you had the same view last year when DJR put pressure on Supercars to have the rules changed so they could fit a composite roof skin? Twelve months later DJR exploit the same rule even further and now it should be left so they can enjoy the fruits of their work? Yes, that would be great if you're a ford fan, but not so good if you're not. A year of Mustangs winning all the races and taking up the whole front of the grid is bad for the sport. I'm a Holden fan, but I don't want to see Holden win all and every race, as I am a bigger fan of the sport.
There have only been 3 rounds thus far where Mustangs have shown strong form.

Versus how many years of 888 dominating everything?

But it's only now we need to inhibit a winning edge for "the good of the sport".
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Old 11 Apr 2019, 08:22 (Ref:3896744)   #22
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There have only been 3 rounds thus far where Mustangs have shown strong form.

Versus how many years of 888 dominating everything?

But it's only now we need to inhibit a winning edge for "the good of the sport".
You talking about when 888 ran Ford also? 888 fan back then were you? come on tell the truth. Mustang taking five of the six grid positions SM driving away from the rest of the field and pulling a large gap within four or five laps of the race. having to move round 30 Kgs into the roof of their car after crying about a lot less weight than that the year before. The year they won the championship. Parity who has a problem with an even playing field?
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Old 11 Apr 2019, 08:33 (Ref:3896747)   #23
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Even with the COG adjustment, they'll still be at the front of the field.

They claimed the FG-X was at a disadvantage last year, yet still won the championship soundly.

The amount of whinging from the Ford teams' fanbase is unsubstantiated.
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Old 11 Apr 2019, 08:43 (Ref:3896750)   #24
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For what it's worth, I don't have a foot in either camp.

I just enjoy the racing for what it is. Even moreso, when it's close racing.
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Old 11 Apr 2019, 08:50 (Ref:3896752)   #25
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They claimed the FG-X was at a disadvantage last year, yet still won the championship soundly.
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I just enjoy the racing for what it is. Even moreso, when it's close racing.
Last year's championship was decided at the final round.

Is that close racing by your definition, or does it constitute winning the championship soundly?
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