Irish Vees vs Irish FF1600

[crgmichael]

thinking of moving out of karts next year and go onto single seaters just wonder which would prepair me better for slicks and wings abroad.would these budgets sound right to be competitive 10-15k for vees 25-30k for ff1600 thanks in advance does anyone now if tynagh karting track still do vee tests?

[SCOBER11]

In my opinion ff1600 would be the best training ground for future motorsport ambitions (granted i am involved in the organising of ff1600 in Ireland).
FF1600 drivers can race in the UK on nearly any given weekend on a variety of tracks which would be a bonus if you where to try slicks and wings later on, also it has a lot of festival type races.

As regards budget Soutern Irish ff1600 has imposed a 3 set tyre rule for its championship which will reduce budgets dramatically this year.

If you need anymore info e-mail me at irlff_1600@hotmail.com

Did you consider F5 in Ireland ???? They run on a very tightly controlled rule book, have a 600cc engine (i think) are slicks and wings and apparently a very low and controlled budget.

I can pm you the organisers details if you require them.

Now over to the vee boys to state their case!

[Draven]

Well I'm not putting myself forward to represent the Vee's but it's what I chose.

Financialy it made sense and has according to many proven it's self to be the cheapest formula in ireland.

F5 and Shane rover are options but you ask about front running budgets.
Short answer here is F5 is new , so no second hand cars, FSheane is more expensive than Vee's I'm told. To be a front runner in any series wont take a front running budget it will take a mid field budget and a lot of talent.

So if it's your first year then any of the above should work to help you find your feet and your way around.

And Here's one I dont know much about but I think I'm going to try and rent a drive because they look so much fun Global GT lights.
P.s. Vee are the best (I couldnt be impartial after all)

[Nuvolari78]

I seriously considered ff1600 when i started into all this, but the running costs compared to F. Vee are spectacular! Another thing that turned me off was the luck + dollars required to acquire a decent car. The obligatory VD RF90/91/92, 92-94 Swifts, etc aren't easy to find for much less than €10,000 for a decent roller, & then you need an engine, which is where the fun really starts for a newcomer. Even if you do pay top dollar for one from one of the main builders (€6,000+) there ain't no guarantee it will be anything like as sharp as the front runners. Worse, if you miss a gear, or over-rev on a downshift, etc, they'll bend valves! A single gear for a hewland LD200 gearbox used in ff1600s will set you back around €140, & a complete corner of the chassis (wishbones, pushrod, rocker + upright) can easily approach €1,000!
The real problem with ff1600 compared to f. Vee is that it just doesn't compare at all in terms of running costs. The inventory of spares you need to run a Vee is precisely zero, as David Sheane attends every single meeting (even test days), and anything you need is immediately available, along with friendly advice on how to fit it, set up etc etc, usually for the price of yesterday's newspaper.
Try asking someone in the paddock for a pair of wishbones, rocker arm, pushrod & upright for a '92 Van Diemen....
Another advantage of the Vee is the sheer strength of the thing. In any racing class, even if you are good enough never to hit anything, you can bet your ass something else will sooner or later hit you. The front axle on a Vee is a modified VW beetle unit, and even a shunt bad enough to bend the chassis won't render it scrap, as it can be pressed straight again. The rear trailing arm costs something in th eregion of €200, again a virtually indestructible part. The slightest touch on a ff WILL take a corner off.
Vee engines, once properly set up, will withstand amazing levels of abuse, and the Doherty (most popular) engines are all bang on the same in terms of power output. A really decent Vee complete with a Doherty engine can be had for as little as €6,000. Another €8,000 will comfortably run it for a full season, including a mid season engine 'freshen up', running it yourself.
Probably the best class of all in terms of graduation from karts, though, has to be the new Sheane Rover scholarship class. These cars use a 1600cc Rover K Series engine and are brilliant to drive, wet or dry. The engines are modern fuel injected sealed units, & are all the same. The scope for car modification is very tight, so a backmarker's car can easily win. In fact, Garry newsome won the 2004 Phoenix Park feature race in a car that hadn't run for months, & was kept as the 'spare parts' car, without ever having sat behind the wheel of one before!
Running costs for the Sheane Rovers are only slightly higher than those of a Vee.

Not at all sure about Formula 5. A lot will be known after this season, and they may well turn out really well, but their previous couple of seasons running behind the F. Irelands hasn't shown much reliability.

Hope this helps!

[ss_collins]

Gotta be Vee - though the UK series is faster the Irish is just as hard fought.

[Dunzer]

& then you need an engine, which is where the fun really starts for a newcomer. Even if you do pay top dollar for one from one of the main builders (€6,000+)

To quote from Nuvolari78, does it really cost around 6k euros (approx 4k sterling) these days for a FF1600 engine rebuild? When I last did FF1600 in '99 the likes of Scholar were charging around 2k stg for typical annual rebuilds. Have the prices really gone up so much?

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Dunzer

When I last did FF1600 in '99 the likes of Scholar were charging around 2k stg for typical annual rebuilds. Have the prices really gone up so much?

No. Top line Bold rebuild last summer was £1,500 or so, all in.

[Dunzer]

Thanks John....1500 stg is good value

[SCOBER11]

How many cars for Sheane 1600??
Last i heard there were two(late last year)

How much for a Doherty vee engine new and complete?
Isn't it true that all class' engines require a bit "of luck" to get a good one after all its every racing drivers favorite excuse!

If your going down the slicks and wings route later on why not rent for a couple of test sessions, i'm sure there are plenty of vee, sheane and ff1600's out there.

[VFR]

Think he meant a complete new motor....

[ss_collins]

UK spec Vee motors are quite a bit more than Irish I am lead to believe, at top beans an all new prepped UK Vee lump can be £3k. However theres cheaper options

[VFR]

A new top notch Irish spec Vee engine is around €4.5 - €5K so much the same as a UK spec motor. I think think they last a bit longer too given the lower revs.

[av8rirl]

As someone who has raced Vee in both Ireland and the UK, I'd like to add a few comments:

Originally Posted by Nuvolari78

The front axle on a Vee is a modified VW beetle unit, and even a shunt bad enough to bend the chassis won't render it scrap, as it can be pressed straight again.

Perhaps the damaged chassis rail should be replaced!!! Pressing it straight means that that rail will always be slightly weaker!

Originally Posted by Nuvolari78

Vee engines, once properly set up, will withstand amazing levels of abuse, and the Doherty (most popular) engines are all bang on the same in terms of power output. A really decent Vee complete with a Doherty engine can be had for as little as €6,000. Another €8,000 will comfortably run it for a full season, including a mid season engine 'freshen up', running it yourself.

Vee engines are known to have thrown a rod on downshift! Any engine will bend valves or throw a rod if you downshift way to early! The last I heard, a Doherty engine was costing in the region of GBP£3k (if you can get one). And while Damien does build good engines... some are better than others... as others have mentioned, sometimes you get lucky with the engine you are given.

Originally Posted by Nuvolari78

Probably the best class of all in terms of graduation from karts, though, has to be the new Sheane Rover scholarship class. These cars use a 1600cc Rover K Series engine and are brilliant to drive, wet or dry. The engines are modern fuel injected sealed units, & are all the same. The scope for car modification is very tight, so a backmarker's car can easily win. In fact, Garry newsome won the 2004 Phoenix Park feature race in a car that hadn't run for months, & was kept as the 'spare parts' car, without ever having sat behind the wheel of one before!

Again, there have been Rover engines that have bent valves. And most times a very talented driver can get into a car and win with it... A few years back, Paul Heavey put together a very loud and rattly engine for about IR£40... if memory servers me correctly it won the Park or came very close!! Having watch the Sheane Rovers, it is my opinion that they are not very aesthetically pleasing nor do they look to handle greatly! If I remember correctly, Enda O Connor set fastest lap in a race after he had lost the front nose/wing.... surely indicating that the wing is cosmetic?

Originally Posted by Nuvolari78

Running costs for the Sheane Rovers are only slightly higher than those of a Vee.

I think that Sheane Rover is considerably more expensive than Vee... but someone can come along and correct me!

Originally Posted by Nuvolari78

Not at all sure about Formula 5. A lot will be known after this season, and they may well turn out really well, but their previous couple of seasons running behind the F. Irelands hasn't shown much reliability.

Formula 5 is something new so time will tell... A few cars have run around behind Irelands with a variety of drivers... some more experienced and faster than others. This year Leastone seem to be getting a push on making the F5 into a national championship. Last I heard, there were 10 cars going to be on the grid. Not sure if it'll be more or less but again time will tell. An added incentive will be the €10k prize money up for grabs (details on www.leastoneracing.com)!!!

All in all, I couldn't recommend Vee highly enough, but if I had a slightly larger budget, I'd probably go with FF1600 (depending on grids up North and down South). With the FF1600, you can throw it on the trailer and bring it over to the UK on almost any weekend... race a some great tracks against quality opposition (before anyone takes offence, that does not mean that there are not quality Vee drivers)...

[Nuvolari78]

Been away for quite a while.... When i graduate from Vees, Formula Sheane is the only logical choice for me. The cars are fantastic to drive, the driving talent is as deep as any formula you can find, the numbers are growing & growing, and the cars are evloving all the time. They are actually cheaper to run than a front line vee, even if you have the odd accident, as the spares are so cheap, & technical backup is second to none.
Before the start of this year, i seriously considered Formula 5. On paper, it looked like a good idea - a Mondial Formula Ford chassis with a lightweight bike engine, wings, slicks & a sequential gearbox. Any reliability issues would have been sorted, i thought, since the cars had been running since 2001 at the back of the Formula Ireland grid, and the whole package looked very reasonable, with a €10,000 prize for the winner. In reality, it couldn't have been a bigger disaster. Young Kevin O' Hara was in the region of 3 SECONDS a lap faster than anybody, yet he never finished a single race in the entire season. Neither did most others....
In respect to the repairing of chassis, i cannot speak for Leastone, GAC, etc, but any shunts i have had have always been pressed out, and the car handles better than ever.
Regarding the Doherty engines, all i can say is that i could not contemplate racing at the sharp end of the field without one of Damian's engines - i simply could not afford it. A competitive Vee car ready to go with a Doherty engine sells for €6500 - €8000. I know of one car bought for the former whose engine was less than a season old. Once you have one of his engines in the car, that's pretty much it. You have exactly as much grunt as anyone on the grid, as they are all EXACTLY the same. The only differences between Doherty engined cars will be with carbs, transmission, tracking or weight - all up to you. Not only that, but the engines are so well built that they last several times longer than anything else, and, crucially for me, you get ALL your money back when it's time to move on. My engine was originally built in 1997, and is still on the same CASING!! I can't speak for anyone else, but i just haven't the dough to pay someone to build an engine several times over. Brian Hearty's legendary multiple championship winning car raced again this year with the same Doherty engine that it has had since 1997. And i've never heard of anyone who had difficulty in obtaining a new one - Ray Moore has just won the championship this year with a brand new one. Fair play to him, there's no arguing with 6 wins & 2 seconds! Moore has won the national championship for Leastone twice, 2000 & 2006. Those were the only two years that he raced Doherty engines....... Need i say anything else?
I hope Ken Elliott gets his hands on a 'Doherty' for next season. He's a genuine guy, decent pilot, and deserves to do much better.
I have to say that i think what occurred in the Phoenix Park on Sunday was disgraceful. Ray Moore retired from the race due to a loose plug lead, while Garry Newsome was leading from Ken Elliott. Moore left the track down a slip road, & re-attached the plug lead. He appeared to wait for the leaders, then drove straight back toward the track at speed, on the slip road, meeting Newsome face to face!!! Not knowing what the hell was going on, Newsome slowed, waving his hands in the air at the oncoming car. Moore rejoined, and Elliott passed for the lead down the following straight. Elliott would probably have won anyway, as apparently Newsome had a gearbox problem, and was holding the car in gear, but it was hardly the most heartening spectacle.
That's me for another year or so, probably, back to sunny Donegal to create another masterpiece...!!

[Suze]

Any pictures of that incident you just described above?!

[Kershaw]

Hi, new posting here, but have been lurking for quite a while... lets clarify a few things about that long post...
F5 first... Kevin O Hara lapped 3 seconds a lap faster than anyone else on the International circuit, and only that circuit. There are a few reasons for this. He got his F5 before everyone else, he also tested on that circuit previous to the leinster meeting (at F3 meeting). His car was the only one fitted with a Dynojet kit. On the national circuit he was 1 tenth quicker than Paul Heavey managed. So the 3 seconds a lap thing is fanciful to say the least.
Dohertys next... Ray Moore sent his engine away mid season for a rebuild. No engine lasts forever. My 2 cars have Leastone engines, and iirc I raced very hard with Newsome last year at Kirkistown, and there was nothing in the difference between our engines, except the price , i think mine cost half his. Lets not forget Paul heavey won the title in 2004 with a self built engine, and I walked the B championship that year, and the Hawthorn trophy in a car with a leastone built engine. Dan polley won the C title this year in a car with a leastone built engine. Ken elliot won the park with a leastone built engine twice. There is very little difference between the 2, and I have run both.
Now for that infamous Park incident..... Elliot was leading at the time Moore rejoined, and he had been leading for half a lap at that stage, he did not inherit the lead due to Moore rejoining. Not that I condone what Moore did, I just think its effect on the race was not as great as Nuvolari78 is making out.
Kershaw.

[gio]

So Mr. Nuvolari, all I need to go quick is a three grand engine? Gimme a break. Paul Heaveys engines have always been to the fore and the cost less than half of what a Doherty does. Damien builds an awesome engine no doubt but a Leastone one is every bit a match for it. Elliott won the park using a Heavey engine, a track that has just three corners! Heavey's engines hold the lap record on two out of the three variations of mondello and it holds the kirkistown one. A track that is supposedly "all" engine. I rest my case.

To keep every engine sharp it needs a mid season rebuild and guess what, a Heavey one is much cheaper than a Doherty one! To my knowledge moore had to send his engine up north twice this year.

It seems that you have a bit of a vendetta with Leastone. Wonder what they done to **** you off?

Rather than spend a ****loada wedge on the holy grail of engines, I think it'd be better off spending it with Silverstone race school. Worry about the donkey behind the wheel rather than the one in the back.

[Nuvolari78]

I don't know when O' Hara got his car, but, judging by the amount of laps he completed, it wasn't much of an advantage.

[gio]

It's quite a feat for a two man team to get 6-8 cars ready and O'Hara only had to look after one. Yes there was a lot of teething trouble for the year and that's what I think prevented the other cars getting near his time. The boys just didn't get the track time. It's very easy to sit on the fence and judge but there are so many factors to take into account.

It's easy for everyone to jump on the Leastone guys back and rip em apart but in fairness they are the only crowd with a bit of initiative. Everything that has failed on the cars has been out of their hands. From what I hear its been engines, chain, diffs, dodgy rads, everything non-leastone. The original ones are bulletproof and have finished most of the races this year.

[Kershaw]

I assume thats 3000 stg for a doherty engine?? I paid 2500euro for my brand new (rocketship) Heavey engine, which a lot of people assumed was a Doherty til I put them straight.
Some other interesting fact about my engines - all they have received in their yearly strip is bearings!! nothing else.
I would say there is no difference performance wise in the 2 engines.

But back to F5.. iirc o Hara didnt finish the leinster trophy race cos he threw it off at paddock, and afaik he broke a few chains, which points to driver sympathy (I broke none). In the 10 races I did, I went off three times and retired (my fault), I once broke a driveshaft off the line (unchecked damage), won at the Park, and had 2 other finishes. The other 2 I burst water pipes .... I didnt start the final 2 cos i blew up my engine.
But every series has its reliability issues. Vees pinking, Rovers pulling driveshafts etc.

[Kershaw]

O Hara got his car around 3 weeks before I got mine... it might be 4 though , I cant remember.

[Nuvolari78]

I never said that all you need is a quick engine to compete near the top, so you can break what you like. What i referred to was a reliable quick engine that would last a long time, and give my dollars back when the time came to move on. Paul Heavey no doubt does build good engines, but every one of Damian's is as quick as the next. Regarding which one is best, i go back to Ray Moore- he should know better than any other person in irish racing history, yet he bought from Doherty twice, and those were the only two titles he has won. Elliott won the park using a Heavey engine - where the hell was that engine for the rest of the season?!! In the 10 national championships since '97, (when the first Doherty engines were sold) a staggering SEVEN have been won using Doherty engines, with Paul Heavey's win in 2004 being the sole victory for Leastone engines. Incidentally, the other two were in 2002 when Enda O' Connor won with his self-built engine, and in 2003, when Brian Kelly won with a Mahon unit, when title leading & Doherty engined Dermot Doherty retired in the last race. I don't know much about other championships, but as far as i know Alan Whitty had a Doherty engine last year, and he dominated the 'C'. I would imagine anyone who has ever compteted in the 'C' with a Doherty has probably won it, as i think Paul Sammin did some years back, and maybe Brian Leader in 2004, but i'm not entirley sure.
Regarding your comment about Leastone, i have no time for people who stir s###. I haven't the slightest problem with Leastone, in fact i'm a fan. The car that got me started in all this was Finnian Coyle's ex-works Paul Heavey car, and their cars are fantastically engineered, the only irish vee chassis with inboard shocks. I also think that the new car looks beautiful, which is why i'd love to see Ken Elliott stick a Doherty engine in it, and complete what would probably be the ultimate package in irish f vee. I was bitterly disapointed that the whole Formula 5 thing turned out to be such a fiasco, because i thought that the idea was brilliant, the cars looked great, and it was the perfect solution to the 'millions' needed to compete comptitively in Formula Ford.
Best of luck training your Donkeys.

[Nuvolari78]

What has me so upset about the whole Formula 5 thing is it's potential to be the best racing series in the country. Because i seriously considered one for next year, i asked Luke O' Hara about them. He spent the entire season TRYING TO KEEP IT GOING! Note, not improving, or learning, but trying to get it to last race distance. I don't know what happened at the Leinster trophy weekend, but he failed to finish a single race. Sometimes he never got as far as the start line. Apparently the same fate befell Ray Moore.

[gio]

Why would a works Leastone put a doherty in? I'm not stirrin **** just it seemed from your post that it was a bit hostile towards the Leastone boys, thats all.

Where was Elliotts engine after the park? Not raced because it's Moore's. All that ****** aside, in a straight fight the engines are more or less on par.

And Formula 5 is not dead yet...

By the way, I love training donkeys. Helps pay the bills.

Where's Finnian's car now?

[gio]

Kevin did get alot more running than the other boys and he's a gifted young pilot but as I said before it's the non leastone parts that are causing trouble.

With a car as radical as it is (i.e it being the first of its kind in Ireland) its bound to suffer stuff like that. Leastone is doing its best to produce a cheap car with higher performance which is what Irish motorsport needs. Its a lot of car for the price and the problems will be ironed out. Next year, there is no excuse. And hopefully it will come right.