Audi R15 TDi - the thread

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by TWK

"Homegrown" (thank you ) manufacturers take a back seat to NO ONE in ALMS participation.

Interesting. The ALMS certainly had a very American feel to it at it's inception, but (to me) that has diminished over the years, probably due to the dominance of the European marques (outside of GT1 and GTS). Just my perception, Tom.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by TWK

Corvette represents one of three (major) "homegrown manufacturers." Among "minor" there is Panoz, between the LMP1 and GT2 they've been there the whole time. Cadillac was around for three years. We've had Ford for a season now, and we had Vipers for most years, including championships the first couple.

How many Japanese manufacturers have we had in the decade that the ALMS has been around? Right. One. For two seasons. Korean? None. What Japanese manufacturers have you seen ANYWHERE in sports car racing, ACO regs or otherwise (other than in the "home islands" as they like to call them) in the past decade? Hell, in damn near twenty years.

Europe? Ferrari and BMW about half the seasons. GT2 was once a Porsche parade. Aston Martin shows up and wins when the whine a bit and quits, then fields a half-hearted GT2 attempt. In prototypes, Audi...Porsche three big years in LMP2 - the same as Cadillac - big deal. Lola.

"Homegrown" manufacturers take a back seat to NO ONE in ALMS participation.

You can't really compare Porsche's P2 program with Cadillac, Porsche ran a major, sustained, challenge for three full years, Cadillac ran a handful of races, frustrating everyone.

Other than Corvette, and particularly the Panoz LMP years, the series has lacked a home grown identity, with entries the fans can get behind. You only need look at the Ford GT or Riley GT2 Corvette, a season or two, then gone.

IMO, the series needs someone like Riley in LMP, or European customer cars running Ford, Chevy or Chrysler engines.

[TWK]

You seem to have a very poor idea of our provincialism. Fans can only "get behind" a "homegrown" entry? I stand behind the fact that there have been plenty of NA entries of manufacturers.

I'll remind you that through 2008, ALMS has had record crowds year-after-year, some venues surpasing the so-called IMSA "golden years" in the eighties. Fans have their favorites, and they are Porsche, Audi, BMW, Corvette, Viper, and others having nothing to do with race, color, creed, or country of origin.

Want "homegrown?" How about Grand Am? (That's so homegrown that prototype entries are eligible nowhere else.) Doesn't draw flies, either. (The BEST attended Grand Am race did not have the attendence of the WORST attended ALMS race in 2008.)

Fans "get behind" great racecars, good teams, and great drivers (sometimes underdogs, too). They could give a rat's patootie about some silly idea of a "home grown identity."

Note: Cadillac contested 16 of 30 races in its three years, including a hiatus when it "went back to the drawing board." Certainly not as many as I would have liked, but also more that "a handful."

Where does this idea of "homegrown identity" come from anyway? Certainly not British GT in its many iterations, where a few Ginettas (and an Aston or two) seem to struggle into the bottom of the top ten behind a string of Italian cars - and a Ford at Snetteton. Are British fans having trouble "getting behind" that series? Not that I've heard.

[JAG]

No one is saying fans don't enjoy and get behind ALMS entries, wherever they orignate, just that it's dissapointing there isn't a US manufacturer in LMP1/2, or even a US chassis manufacturer, especially as GM and Ford are such huge companies.

Sure they're in financial troubles, but still invest multi-millions in NASCAR, yet they won't compete against Corvette with a Viper or Mustang/GT, in the premier US sportscar series.

You can't tell me US fans wouldn't like to see a Riley P1 chassis with a Ford or Chevy motor, run by a US team like Intersport, Gannasi, Dyson etc., taking on the Lola's, Pescarolo's, Zytek's, Oreca's etc.

When the Panoz P1's were competing they were real fan favourites and gave the series that something extra, a distinct US flavour. Sure fans would welcome any entries but an all US entry would be extra special.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by TWK

Want "homegrown?" How about Grand Am? (That's so homegrown that prototype entries are eligible nowhere else.) Doesn't draw flies, either. (The BEST attended Grand Am race did not have the attendence of the WORST attended ALMS race in 2008.)

Fans "get behind" great racecars, good teams, and great drivers (sometimes underdogs, too). They could give a rat's patootie about some silly idea of a "home grown identity."

This speaks I think for the majority of ALMS fans I talk to. The fact that there are great manufacturers and privateers from all over the world, including America, makes the ALMS great. "Home grown" is more of a NASCAR mindset IMO. ALMS fans want a duel between high tech, professional, diverse grids featuring high calibre teams regardless of origin.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by JAG

You can't tell me US fans wouldn't like to see a Riley P1 chassis with a Ford or Chevy motor,

When the Panoz P1's were competing they were real fan favourites and gave the series that something extra, a distinct US flavour. Sure fans would welcome any entries but an all US entry would be extra special.

I would dearly love to see a Riley chassis, the engine origin is not that important. I would love to see it both in ALMS and also at LeMans, which I know is something the Riley's want too.

The Panoz was extra special.

[cmk]

I think there is a rather archaic definition of 'homegrown' at work in this argument that the ALMS lacks homegrown constructor input. The Acura P2 program is run by HPD, so even if the parent company is 'foreign', that is a made-in-USA product (ignoring the initial Courage input!). To a degree, the Porsche RS Spyder is homegrown - commissioned by PCNA for the ALMS long before it was used to win anything in Europe. These are companies building cars for the North American racing scene, supporting it directly. Who cares where they are from?!

Furthermore, as other posters have correctly suggested, the ALMS fan typically favours the cosmopolitan, global input into the series. We were fortunate enough, in 2008, to be blessed with a great grid and drivers from around the world - Salo, Dumas, Bernhard, Brabham, Luhr, Montagny, Magnussen and more. There was a lot of genuine talent on the grid, so why look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Kiki]

Originally Posted by cmk

I think there is a rather archaic definition of 'homegrown' at work in this argument that the ALMS lacks homegrown constructor input. The Acura P2 program is run by HPD, so even if the parent company is 'foreign', that is a made-in-USA product (ignoring the initial Courage input!). To a degree, the Porsche RS Spyder is homegrown - commissioned by PCNA for the ALMS long before it was used to win anything in Europe. These are companies building cars for the North American racing scene, supporting it directly. Who cares where they are from?!

Furthermore, as other posters have correctly suggested, the ALMS fan typically favours the cosmopolitan, global input into the series. We were fortunate enough, in 2008, to be blessed with a great grid and drivers from around the world - Salo, Dumas, Bernhard, Brabham, Luhr, Montagny, Magnussen and more. There was a lot of genuine talent on the grid, so why look a gift horse in the mouth.

And the above stated cars are/were run by American teams as well. That's not really the point of the argument though, I think. US-based manufacturers are not well-represented in the series (with the notable exception of GM) and that's unfortunate.

Acura is selling the brand name to us. They want to give to Acura what Honda already has - pedigree. It's somewhat of a moot point, since all of their passenger cars are or are based upon a FWD architecture. And their highest performing cars has a V6. (Excusable for the NSX because it was in the back and drove the right set of wheels) So American or not, they're just selling Acuras, which is still considered a Japanese brand.

I think Ford and Chrysler could even go the Mazda route - throw some development money at a race engine manufactured by someone else, badge it as their own and race another chassis. That alone would garner a decent ammount of fan support and recognition without the incredible cost of developing an in-house race engine and contracting/homologating/testing a new bespoke chassis. Besides. Ford and Chrysler don't need to sell cars to the NASCRAP crowd, they're already faithful. They need to market cars to the likes of us, road course-loving, tech-loving sports car crowd that like Porsches, Ferraris and Vettes whether or not we can afford them. (And I can not)

I wonder if Riley will build a new chassis once the 2011 prototype regs satiate the ever-mettlesome ACO? I hear the new Ford I4T is a hell of a block. Send a shipping container full of them over to Judd and see if they can work some magic? Throw it in a Riley coupe and run P1?

Maybe that's like hoping Honda will come out with an affordable rear-driver.

/ramble

[carsten66]

It's very interesting and also sometimes amusing but often boring that all the "homegrown" or "US" stuff is always cooking and consistently get picked up by someone... I'm remembering back also the endless threads at the CART/CCWS forums... all is said and all is written - so what's up?

And - Americans want to have a free and open worldwide market but for some people it seems difficult to accept the other way round. That's hardly fair but isn't America a broad-minded so called melting-pot?

But back to topic, I've just read an interview actually from january with Tom Kristensen talking about the R15... he said that indeed at the moment Audi only is planning to drive with the R15 at Sebring and Le Mans - but Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich is trying hard to extend the program and that with things working out well (budget, crisis and car) maybe we will see the new car more often on the grid than expected. Scheme of improvement of the financial situation also is to sell more customer sports cars and the new RR8 LMS...
so at least there is little more hope...

[Speed-King]

It's very interesting and also sometimes amusing but often boring that all the "homegrown" or "US" stuff is always cooking and consistently get picked up by someone... I'm remembering back also the endless threads at the CART/CCWS forums... all is said and all is written - so what's up?

And - Americans want to have a free and open worldwide market but for some people it seems difficult to accept the other way round. That's hardly fair but isn't America a broad-minded so called melting-pot?

Just some food for thought: Do you think people would care about DTM over here if it was Toyota vs Citroen vs Hyundai instead of Audi vs Merc? I don't think so.

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just some food for thought: Do you think people would care about DTM over here if it was Toyota vs Citroen vs Hyundai instead of Audi vs Merc? I don't think so.

Ok that's a point but you have given a poor comparison. It doesn't matter what brands are involved when the brands and the series go well together and the fans get a thrilling package. (your example fits well in WRC) So yes, I think people take care when the product is right. Simply good racing, drivers, teams and cars...

And the ALMS - you also see a long list with the best and well-known brands and in addition most of them with a very long history and tradition of motor racing. Once again, motor racing is an international business and so are operating and thinking the car makers and teams too...

[fanfisique]

Audi is gonna race at LeMans with just TWO cars, they had rejected the 3rd car invitation by ACO:

Non-Confirmed ACO invitations:

AUDI SPORT NORTH AMERICA
INTERSPORT RACING
PENSKE MOTORSPORTS INC.
PENSKE RACING
VAN MERKSTEIJN MOTORSPORT
VAN MERKSTEIJN MOTORSPORT
TEAM ESSEX
HORAG RACING
ASTON MARTIN RACING
TEAM MODENA
VITAPHONE RACING TEAM
PHOENIX CARSPORT RACING
BELL MOTORSPORTS
BMS SCUDERIA ITALIA

That´s official. Unless they pick up the invitation at the last moment.

[CTD]

I believe they are going to race 3 cars!, but that the reason they turned down one of the invitation has to do with something else!

[The Badger]

Then I certainly dont need to see 2 Kolles R10 , 1 would be plenty , imo .

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by CTD

I believe they are going to race 3 cars!, but that the reason they turned down one of the invitation has to do with something else!

Could it just be that they want to run 2 cars as Team Joest since Audi Sport NA aka Champion is no more?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Could it just be that they want to run 2 cars as Team Joest since Audi Sport NA aka Champion is no more?

Well then they could just do like Peugeot and switch around with the names
2x Audi Sport Team Joest
1x Audi Sport Joest Team?

[Dead-Eye]

They probably could, but they did accept one of the Audi Sport NA invitations

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Could it just be that they want to run 2 cars as Team Joest since Audi Sport NA aka Champion is no more?

Audi Sport North America is whomever Audi North America says it is.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Could it just be that they want to run 2 cars as Team Joest since Audi Sport NA aka Champion is no more?

Hmm, Champion Racing "is no more"? I do not think that Champion Racing would agree with that!! They, representing ASNA, are on a very limited schedule this year, I would agree. But to declare them dead, is not accurate, IMO.


L.P.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm, Champion Racing "is no more"? I do not think that Champion Racing would agree with that!! They, representing ASNA, are on a very limited schedule this year, I would agree. But to declare them dead, is not accurate, IMO.


L.P.

I thought I remembered reading something to that effect here, my bad.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm, Champion Racing "is no more"? I do not think that Champion Racing would agree with that!! They, representing ASNA, are on a very limited schedule this year, I would agree. But to declare them dead, is not accurate, IMO.


L.P.

I believe that Champion race personnel were reported as laid off by the bear after the no-Audi announcement. This does not mean permanently, of course, as layoffs can be periodic before re-hiring. I was under the impression that Team Joest people would be running the R15s at Sebring, however, leaving no role for Champion staff (regardless of whether the entry is under the ASNA or AS Team Joest banner).

[TWK]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm, Champion Racing "is no more"? I do not think that Champion Racing would agree with that!! They, representing ASNA, are on a very limited schedule this year, I would agree. But to declare them dead, is not accurate, IMO.


L.P.

Yes, zero races with no personnel is a "very limited schedule," isn't it?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by fanfisique

Audi is gonna race at LeMans with just TWO cars, they had rejected the 3rd car invitation by ACO:

That´s official. Unless they pick up the invitation at the last moment.

January 12th was the deadline for accepting automatic invitations, so no last moments...

[deggis]

McNish interview:
http://www.crash.net/Le+Mans/News/14...an_to_dtm.html
http://www.crash.net/ALMS/News/14247...c_sebring.html

audio:
http://audio.crash.net/radioplayer.a...URL=142498.wma

[Félix]

Bruno Famin, head of Peugeot Sport, talked about the engine rules and what they expect Audi to do with their next diesel engine and would do if they had the budget. They probably use the same simulation tools and they are both in a unique situation where they have experience with a Le Mans diesel V12. Translated-summarized from Endurance-info:

He hopes his team will still be leading Audi because they will have reliability issues, especially if you believe it will be a bigger evolution than the R10 was from the R8.

Interestingly, he "imagines" the car with two cylinders less and about 4.7 litres for a 20 kg gain on the back of a smaller engine and corresponding ballast placed at the front. This resizing is still ideal with the new restrictors and turbo pressures, and it's still using the same unitary cylinder dimensions they used on their 5.5 V12s.

Finally, he doesn't think a V8 can be competitive because the individual cylinders' capacity would either be too big or the turbo pressure would have to be "crazy". That rules out the 2011-rules engine from being competitive for now, and means Peugeot is stuck with its V12 until then too...

(Very very good reporting job on EE's side. That's where I can get most of my news now, and I like it