Marko on Webber

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

Helmut Marko.. He's not just a pen pushing salesman, unlike Mr RB himself!
He knows his stuff....& his opinion shows it.

That may well be, however I do not see the purpose behind his criticism of Mark Webber apart from putting him down...I do wish upper level management would stop using this method of saying through the press what they don't have the balls to say face to face...

[formerf1champ]

I didn't read the thread. I've only just noticed this post.

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

Most of us downunder still wonder why the F1 world thinks he's championship material.

The praise he gets from the media here annoys me more.

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

All he succeeded in doing here is taking the Yellow Pages money from Formula Ford Australia to fund his rides in the UK....helped by his partner who ran FFA at the time.

So this did actually happen? I asked this on one of the threads on the Australian section. No one answered.

[OZ_HCR32]

I don't get Marko. He comes out with strange comments on all Red Bull backed drivers except Vettel

He obviously got the call with Vettel right but soooo many other promising drivers have come to nothing under his control. He doesn't seem to understand that talent sometimes needs to be encouraged and supported.

I think Vettel is a very rare talent in that he has the skills and personal attributes to allow him to become world champion almost independent of those around him.

To paint a picture I dare say that if Hamilton was a RB contracted driver he may have had the axe dropped on him. As a driver I think talent like Hamilton needs support/moulding to get his best, unlike Vettel.

Marko maybe should look at his own performance with regards to nourishing talent and ask why this No.2 driver has not been replaced by one of his talents which has cost Rb millions in identifying?

The comments on Webber have merit...those that right off his 2010 championship challenge as lucky or 2012 challenge as failed fall short of the credit they deserve.

Vettel has proven to be special, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel all made their mistakes in 2010. Webber's mistake in Korea can be equated to others errors during the year. Vettel won on merit, that accomplishment does not automatically mean others failed. Just like last year....I think Webber threw the towel in around India when car development went away from him and Vettels speed was unbeatable. He certainly didnt seem interested in racing in Abu Dhabi.

[OZ_HCR32]

I will add, Vettel is am amazing talent...when we see him up against some other team mates later in his career we will see just how good. But all signs are that he is a great.

So not matching Vettel is no crime. Bringing out the excuse book, considering his weight and the era of F1 cars we have he is proven good enough to keep the coveted RBR seat.

In 2010 team/James Allen talk was that the cars development went away from Webber towards Vettel with the change from cold blown to hot blown diffuser giving Vettel the stability he wanted on corner entry. Talk from Horner this year again suggests that car development/setup was not to Vettels liking earlier in the year and as the cars pace improved the balance went towards Vettel.

So Webber will have to pull something we have not seen from him to beat Vettel in 2013... I say thow a booster seat in Vettel's car and throw the extra kgs at him and take car development in the direction that Webber wants and it may be a closer challenge....or a different result.

The above is not to say Webber is being cheated or unfairly disadvantaged....but that thinking to me suggests they are actually pretty close when you factor in what a driver needs to mount a WDC challenge. No doubt his size and Neweys packaging are a reason why the KERS in his car plays up more than in Vettels for instance...lol...ranting, shoudl put down the bottle of beer and walk away from the computer

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

That may well be, however I do not see the purpose behind his criticism of Mark Webber apart from putting him down...I do wish upper level management would stop using this method of saying through the press what they don't have the balls to say face to face...

Its probably already been said face to face...its just not the kind of stuff MW would tweet!
Playing nice in F1 has never worked for anyone.

I'd put Webber in top 10 #2s of all time however....now there's a thread opp!!!


.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

I didn't read the thread. I've only just noticed this post.

The praise he gets from the media here annoys me more.


So this did actually happen? I asked this on one of the threads on the Australian section. No one answered.

Yes his mates at channel 10 are in his pocket, mainly to boost the ratings etc. Ask Darryl Beattie off camera tho !!!

Yellow Pages WAS to be the naming rights sponsor of FF from '95 onwards.
......but!

Anyway karma's a funny old thing.


.

[OZ_HCR32]

Are you seriously shirty with Webber because Yellow Pages were his personal sponsor? They sponsored his FF and stuck with him. If they saw better value in following hi career then so be it....looking back at things they got the call right!

[FAS33]

Mark webber 2nd best driver for redbull? WHAT A JOKE! hes obviously the 3rd best, as the RBR test driver is faster then him.

[MarkG]

Mark Webber is getting quite a kicking on this thread. If he really is that bad a driver, then maybe it raises the question of just how good Vettel is, considering that there have been many times that Webber has equalled or bettered Vettel, and the obvious fact that the team is only fully behind Vettel.

I think Vettel is a quality driver, but I certainly don't rave about him like many do. He has patently had the best machinery these last 3 years and I also believe Hamilton's frustrations have their roots in his belief that he's losing championships to a lesser driver in a superior car.

When Vettel looses his petulance, and proves himself in not the best car, then maybe I'll rate him alongside drivers like Alonso and Hamilton, maybe, though never against the likes of Senna, Stewart, Fango etc.

I like Mark Webber. He's a decent driver, more than decent actually, doesn't seem to talk twaddle, and considering his age and his size, he makes it quite uncomfortable for his boy-wonder team-mate, much to the teams' distaste I suspect. He is the number 2, that is without question, but he's not the meek number 2 that RB would prefer him to be.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by MarkG

If he really is that bad a driver, then maybe it raises the question of just how good Vettel is, considering that there have been many times that Webber has equalled or bettered Vettel, and the obvious fact that the team is only fully behind Vettel.

Originally Posted by MarkG

I think Vettel is a quality driver, but I certainly don't rave about him like many do.

It's the old chestnut of just how do we rate them? I think Vettel's very good and therefore Mark did a fine job in the first part of 2012. On the other hand, Vettel is not quite as good as the top two from what I see (but I'm increasingly revising that view; this is something I've discussed in the Hamilton thread).

I think I see Mark as a sort of Jenson Button-level driver; a very, very talented driver and fine Formula 1 driver, but not likely to eke out the level of performance and eke it out as consistently as a Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso (even though Vettel has that a bit to prove after the start of 2012 when the car wasn't to his liking; you see neither Hamilton nor Alonso suffering when the car is awry).

Originally Posted by MarkG

considering his age and his size, he makes it quite uncomfortable for his boy-wonder team-mate, much to the teams' distaste I suspect. He is the number 2, that is without question, but he's not the meek number 2 that RB would prefer him to be.

Yes. He is number 2 and I don't greatly appreciate Red Bull denying that (I'm not what you would call a Ferrari tifoso, but at least they're pretty honest these days about that stuff), but there are times when Mark gets the better of him. Think about up to Silverstone last year. He was in the hunt. Can he do that again?

Marko may be trying to destabilise Mark. Is he on commission if Vettel wins or what? I'd like to have a higher opinion of him, but media-wise here in the UK, we only see him as this guy in the background also supporting Vettel and not wearing Red Bull gear (he seems to be the SV fan club).

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

You don't think crashing into the wall in Korea, when the other title contenders didn't, was a sign of cracking?

he binned it in the rain at Korea so yes it was a sign of cracking in that he drove the race with a cracked shoulder!

my recollection of 2010 is that all the title challengers all had their share of mistakes, including SV. so is every mistake now an example of cracking up? sometimes a mistake is just a mistake. for me it does not necessarily follow that making a mistake is on its own evidence of cracking up...in fairness though maybe Marko has more examples but just chose not to share them in the interview.

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

You don't think qualifying 5th in Abu Dhabi, in the second fastest racing car ever built, when he'd been easily qualifying on the front row the whole year, was a sign of cracking?

he did perform poorly in quali there hence why i thought the broken shoulder was more of a factor. he didnt do well in the last 4 races of the year so all im saying is that maybe there were other factors (like a broken shoulder) in him not being able to extract the maximum during those races. for me not being 100% fit sounds like a more reasonable explanation for his 2010 collapse but i dont know for sure.

like you im just speculating based on a very strange interview. RB has the image of extreme sports and endorsing athletes who are both physically and mentally tough. that they would publicly criticize (in their own magazine) their driver for lacking one of those traits is bizarro.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

When you listen to Christian Horner, he sounds happier over the radio when Seb wins, but this is just what I hear. There may be nothing in it at all.

To be fair, we don't get many oppotunities to hear Horner on the radio after a Webber win

[OZ_HCR32]

Well, its 2013 and with the rules being pretty stable and RBR having a very sharp tool....Webber again has his chance to rock the apple kart. He needs to actually a podium in Aus for a change and to convert some of the speed he shows every year in Malaysia with a win and it will be very interesting to see how a strong start to the season looks when he heads back to Europe as he always seems to have a strong middle of the season but fairly ordinary-crap start

[Trev Campbell]

Actually, I think this year will be more like 2011, The car was developed away from Mark towards Vettel in the last half of last year, So I would assume that the RB will continue to be developed in this way for Vettel to doinate the championship again.

[AussieTimmeh]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Helmut Marko is pretty much on the ball with what he's said... but boy oh boy it's just not the kind of thing that somebody of his seniority in Red Bull should be coming out with in public.

I agree with this post entirely.

I have followed Webber ever since his Mercedes days, and I am fully aware that he is not title material. Great when he is having a great day, but Marko is right.

I would argue that Webber contributes to the team with developing of the car (as both drivers do), but I am not waiting for Webber to win a WDC.

I remember the years when there were no Aussies in F1, so I just appreciate getting to support one (and now two).

My dislike for Vettel is not because I am a Webber fan, but purely on Vettel's actions. He is getting more sensible and mature as time goes on, but just like Schumacher and pretty much everyone else, he has to be in the right car to win a WDC. Mark had the right cars too but just wasn't as fast as Vettel. So be it, life goes on!

[Oran Park Forever]

If Webber took the offer to go to Ferrari, then the gripes would be about how Luca supports Alonso, & that Ferrari build the car to suit Alonso's style yada yada....

Sound familiar??

It's simple, the top teams know a #2 when they see one. Otherwise they'd be breaking down his door to get his signature....


.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by AussieTimmeh

My dislike for Vettel is not because I am a Webber fan, but purely on Vettel's actions. He is getting more sensible and mature as time goes on, but just like Schumacher and pretty much everyone else, he has to be in the right car to win a WDC!

Don't they all?

[Steelepunk]

About 15 years ago on my 28k modem & geocities account I created the first Mark Webber Fan page. He was driving over in Europe at the time & Yellow Pages noticed the website after I reached out to them for him to answer a few questions.
Month later I got to meet him at the YP offices in Melbourne and he drove me to a press conference to announce some new deal or something. Don't remember to many of the details as I was only 14 or 15 but he was driving a two seater Mercedes way to fast & he asked me what I thought of Craig Lowndes.

Was a big highlight in my young life and seeing as though he was super cool to me i'll always cheer him on.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

If Webber took the offer to go to Ferrari, then the gripes would be about how Luca supports Alonso, & that Ferrari build the car to suit Alonso's style yada yada....

Sound familiar??

RBR have made no gripe that after an impressive first year with the team that it made sense to build the car around him and his style/likes. His age, size and long term contract all ensured that.

I think its fair to point out that when the boffins/engineers have given their drivers a car after the off season in 2010 and 2012 it was quick enough to get strong podiums and win races. (2010 4 wins for Webber to Vettels 2 by Round 12 & in 2012 2 wins for Webber to Vettels 1 win by Round 12)

The car handed to the drivers has meant that both drivers have been very even and Webber leading the points those particular years. Then as luck has it development goes a certain direction and Vettel gets more out of the package.

Its not saying Webber is being cheated by the car being designed for Vettel etc...or he is better if the team backed him...but I think if you are being critical then they are factors you have to consider.

The two are pretty close but you have to accept that 3 out of the 4 years Webber has been in the hunt and its been Vettel that sharpens his focus and results when the silverware is up for grabs. The 4th year, 2011 Vettel was miles ahead of everyone with how he came to grips with the new tyres and regs

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

Yes his mates at channel 10 are in his pocket, mainly to boost the ratings etc. Ask Darryl Beattie off camera tho !!!

He lives on the Gold Coast, I live in Melbourne, there's no chance of me asking him. Do you know him? Give us a clue? Come to think of it, it's Baird who mainly trumps him up.

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

Yellow Pages WAS to be the naming rights sponsor of FF from '95 onwards.
......but!

Anyway karma's a funny old thing.


.

Tbh, I think Mark is giving karma a nice pounding atm.

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Are you seriously shirty with Webber because Yellow Pages were his personal sponsor? They sponsored his FF and stuck with him. If they saw better value in following hi career then so be it....looking back at things they got the call right!

Initially, I thought you were a spanner with this comment. However, I did think about it and I can see that you have a point.

I think from my and OPF pov, we are more interested in the benefit of the whole of Aus motorsport, rather than an individual. When I say "individual", I certainly wouldn't have begrudged Mark had he proven to be a highly exceptional driver, that would've been a positive for Aus motorsport. But he's only proven to be of mild ability. Too many excuses are made by him and for him as well, it's just no good enough if you've talked yourself up as much as he has. On top of that, in the whole time I've known of him, despite the career he's had, I've never had the impression that he even has much of a passion for motorsport.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

he binned it in the rain at Korea so yes it was a sign of cracking in that he drove the race with a cracked shoulder!
.

Something that has always annoyed me over the years, is how many excuses other people make for Mark. Is this really good enough for you? Do you really buy it?

Michael Doohan missed out on the 92 500cc wc at South Africa because he was injured. Mark just ****** up, he never made proper use of the fortune he's had throughout his career in the lead up to '10 (even 09), and it showed.

Originally Posted by Steelepunk

he asked me what I thought of Craig Lowndes.

What did you say?

[Smurfer]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Something that has always annoyed me over the years, is how many excuses other people make for Mark. Is this really good enough for you? Do you really buy it?

Michael Doohan missed out on the 92 500cc wc at South Africa because he was injured. Mark just ****** up, he never made proper use of the fortune he's had throughout his career in the lead up to '10 (even 09), and it showed.

What did you say?

Geez, you really do dislike the man.

In relation to Marko's comments, I really can't think of another professional organisation that would say such things about one of their employees. I like MW though tend to agree with Marko's comments however it just doesn't seem appropriate.

[Oldtony]

Seriously F1FC you really are taking your displeasure to extremes.
Quite bluntly we probably wouldn't have had F1 as a regular live feature on our TV for the past 5 or 6 years if "Australia's Mark Webber" hadn't been a feature.
For that the sport in general, and F1 fans in particular owe him a debt of gratitude. Even in the Allan Jones Championship years we didn't get that level of coverage.
He probably will never be World Champ. There are a huge number of very good drivers who share that position. He has been a big contributor to a number of teams in F1, and has always appeared to put in a 100% effort.
It would appear his judgement, and his outspoken representation of their cause has been respected by most F1 drivers to negotiate on their behalf.
In the end Mark will go down as a bloke who achieved a lot on guts and detertmination without ever having the level of talent that his present team mate has. But he certainly outperformed most of the team mates he had before this one.
Quite frankly Australia should be proud of him.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

The 4th year, 2011 Vettel was miles ahead of everyone with how he came to grips with the new tyres and regs

Just like Mansell was miles ahead of everyone with the car he had during his championship winning year.
Mind you I liked Mansell, b**ls as big as footballs, I don't really like Vettel.

[chunder]

I am not sure who Mr marko is, or how qualified he might be to come up with these fairly regular comments about various rivals to his little boyfriend, but it does get a little tiresome.

I can take comment from a Jackie Stewart or Lauda as they have been there in the thick of titles and competition, but some gnarly old man who mis maktes with the Red Bull boss and happens to be involved with the current Ringmeister? No, sorry mate not going to value your opinion, coz in reality it os no more or less qualified than mine.

Webber cant be doing that bad a job as there are plenty of young boys ready to take over, and so far none have, he has won GP's every year for 3 years, more than Massa has and other than last year at McLaren, I cant see a better or stronger pairing on the grid. OK he isn't better than Seb, but then not many peopel are, so just leave him alone and stop trying to weedle one of your other lovechilds into the seat and stick to wheeling and dealing which is what you seem best at.