Re-engined/rebuilt GP cars currently racing!

henk4 · 11 Sep 2006, 08:39 (Ref:1707675)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Neil Corner used to say that he was just a temporary custodian, the car would move on to someone else after his time, he was just looking after it temporarily and it was his responsibility to do so as carefully as possible.

Interesting to see him being mentioned, because when reading your post I thought about his son, who some years ago saw his historic racing career being ended by the crash of his (and his father's) Tasman Dino V12.
The car survived pretty well and after some years as a V12 is now being raced in its original V6 configuration (albeit with a partly newly constructed engine).
In this respect I am wondering what happened to the remains of the BRM P25 of the late Spencer Flack?

jamesholland · 11 Sep 2006, 08:48 (Ref:1707685)

Quote:

Originally Posted by henk4

Interesting to see him being mentioned, because when reading your post I thought about his son, who some years ago saw his historic racing career being ended by the crash of his (and his father's) Tasman Dino V12.
The car survived pretty well and after some years as a V12 is now being raced in its original V6 configuration (albeit with a partly newly constructed engine).
In this respect I am wondering what happened to the remains of the BRM P25 of the late Spencer Flack?

As far as i'm aware the Spencer Flack BRM was rebuilt and I think I'm correct in saying that Rick Hall raced it at Goodwood last year.

I think it's a pity that the ex Corner Ferrari has been re-engined with a V6. After all it has had the V12 for all but the first two years of its life and was a truly special car, one of only two genuine post 1955 front engined GP Ferraris. However I think it required a driver of Neil Corner's ability to get the best out of it.

henk4 · 11 Sep 2006, 08:56 (Ref:1707695)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesholland

As far as i'm aware the Spencer Flack BRM was rebuilt and I think I'm correct in saying that Rick Hall raced it at Goodwood last year.

I think it's a pity that the ex Corner Ferrari has been re-engined with a V6. After all it has had the V12 for all but the first two years of its life and was a truly special car, one of only two genuine post 1955 front engined GP Ferraris. However I think it required a driver of Neil Corner's ability to get the best out of it.

George Fowles, (Tony Smith's mechanic) told me at the Monaco Historic GP that the V6 was installed to make the car eligible there. The V12 is still available and can be used if required. However Tony seems to like the V6 as the reduced weight makes it a much better balanced car.

PeterMorley · 11 Sep 2006, 12:06 (Ref:1707883)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesholland

As far as i'm aware the Spencer Flack BRM was rebuilt and I think I'm correct in saying that Rick Hall raced it at Goodwood last year.

I think it's a pity that the ex Corner Ferrari has been re-engined with a V6. After all it has had the V12 for all but the first two years of its life and was a truly special car, one of only two genuine post 1955 front engined GP Ferraris. However I think it required a driver of Neil Corner's ability to get the best out of it.

Apparently the damage to the P25 wasn't as bad as was first reported.
For some reason it didn't have (all or some?) of the original bodywork on it at the time so it was possible to restore it with the original bodywork, meaning it is (apparently) still a pretty original car.

The odd thing is that before the accident, when we thought we were seeing the only completely original P25 it wasn't as original as we assumed!

Wasn't the V12 Ferrari engine a 3 litre, ruling it out of the 2.5 litre class, so fitting the V6 made it eligible for 50's F1 events - and it doesn't seem to be much of a handicap, it is still up front where it belongs.

James & Henk both understand my point of view, while it is the owner's right to do what he likes with a car, there has to be some consideration at least for the other competitors if not the machinery (that is meant to be the focus of attention - historic racing should be about the cars (and original drivers) not the drivers).

What we do not need is for health & safety do-gooders getting involved, and a series of high profile accidents will attract attention.

henk4 · 11 Sep 2006, 12:37 (Ref:1707918)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

For some reason it didn't have (all or some?) of the original bodywork on it at the time so it was possible to restore it with the original bodywork, meaning it is (apparently) still a pretty original car.

The odd thing is that before the accident, when we thought we were seeing the only completely original P25 it wasn't as original as we assumed!

I think in many cases the original body work (or big parts of it) is fafely stored away and cars that are being raced run with replacement panels...

Hall and Hall has a P25 for sale right now. Should that be the car? The only one without an "R" in the chassis number?

PeterMorley · 11 Sep 2006, 14:46 (Ref:1708021)

Quote:

Originally Posted by henk4

I think in many cases the original body work (or big parts of it) is fafely stored away and cars that are being raced run with replacement panels...

Hall and Hall has a P25 for sale right now. Should that be the car? The only one without an "R" in the chassis number?

It is unusual to look after the bodywork in that way but with many cars like 250F & 8C Alfa, the owners fit new engines and keep the originals safely in one piece.

Speedmaster (who work with Hall & Hall) are advertising two P25s, one is the original ex-Flack car for a million and the other is one built up from many original pieces for a third of the price.

Belmondo · 11 Sep 2006, 15:28 (Ref:1708053)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesholland

As far as i'm aware the Spencer Flack BRM was rebuilt and I think I'm correct in saying that Rick Hall raced it at Goodwood last year.

I think it's a pity that the ex Corner Ferrari has been re-engined with a V6. After all it has had the V12 for all but the first two years of its life and was a truly special car, one of only two genuine post 1955 front engined GP Ferraris. However I think it required a driver of Neil Corner's ability to get the best out of it.

Yes, I agree - seems like awful judgement to re-engine the V12 Dino. With Neil Corner driving that car was so thrilling to watch. Much less exciting in the hands of Tony Smith though, especially now he's monkeyed around with it. Couldn't believe it when I saw it with the 246 installed at Brands.

henk4 · 11 Sep 2006, 15:48 (Ref:1708078)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belmondo

Yes, I agree - seems like awful judgement to re-engine the V12 Dino. With Neil Corner driving that car was so thrilling to watch. Much less exciting in the hands of Tony Smith though, especially now he's monkeyed around with it. Couldn't believe it when I saw it with the 246 installed at Brands.

but in the old V12 guise it was not eligible for some races.....as it was a 3 litre engine. That it was allowed to race was purely because of the rarity of the car (Like the 3-litre Scarab Offenhauser that Don Orosco fielded a number of years ago). And as I said, the V12 configuration can be brought back with immediate effect if required.

And yes back in 1987 when I first visited a Historic Grand Prix ever, (Zandvoort), this was the car that caught my imagination and attention, seeing a V12 in there of which I had never heard before. Neil Corner was driving and he had a good dice with the BRM P25 of Peter/John (?) Harper for the lead.

PeterMorley · 11 Sep 2006, 16:14 (Ref:1708089)

I think the Scarab & Ferrari were allowed to run 3 litre engines as they were eligible for the Intercontinental formula that was proposed (and a few races run) when F1 went from 2.5 litres to 1.5 litres.

That would be similar to the 1.5 litre F1 cars running 2 litre (or bigger) engines in the 'Tasman' class, even if they didn't run such engines at the time they could have and are accepted in the appropriate class.

Btu I think both the Ferrari & Scarab did race as 3 litres at the time, so allowing them to run in a different class would have been acceptable to most race organisers.

Belmondo · 12 Sep 2006, 08:19 (Ref:1708590)

It caught my eye the same year, beating Anthony Mayman's Lotus 16 at Silverstone. Corner just drove it so hard. In practice, with not that many cars out, you could hear it nearly all the way round the lap on the club circuit.
Didn't the Marsh Plant DBR4, which Gerry Marshall raced, have a 3-litre? I did hear that Tony Smith changed the Dino engine to get an entry at Monaco, but it seemed far fetched that they wouldn't accept it with the V12. Everyone else seems to.

henk4 · 12 Sep 2006, 08:27 (Ref:1708598)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belmondo

I did hear that Tony Smith changed the Dino engine to get an entry at Monaco, but it seemed far fetched that they wouldn't accept it with the V12. Everyone else seems to.

Monaco is simply not "everyone else"

jamesholland · 12 Sep 2006, 08:30 (Ref:1708601)

Yes it did, IIRC the 2 1/2 litre it had when Marsh bought it proved fragile. Of course the first of the Tasman/Intercontinental Formula cars to appear in historic events was Neil Corners' 3 litre Aston DBR4 which was dominant in the early 1970s

Belmondo · 12 Sep 2006, 08:56 (Ref:1708622)

Quote:

Originally Posted by henk4

Monaco is simply not "everyone else"

Well, today's millionaire racers will insist on everything – the most high-profile and prestigious events at which to bash their cars up. Means there are very few pedigree cars to be seen in club racing these days.

I've seen pictures of Corner in the DBR4, James. I mainly remember the Dino and Piccolo 250F though.

jamesholland · 12 Sep 2006, 09:04 (Ref:1708627)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belmondo

Well, today's millionaire racers will insist on everything – the most high-profile and prestigious events at which to bash their cars up. Means there are very few pedigree cars to be seen in club racing these days.

I've seen pictures of Corner in the DBR4, James. I mainly remember the Dino and Piccolo 250F though.

I fear you have a point there. It's a funny old world when you become nostagic about how historic racing used to be!

BTW the Corner 250F is a 1957 lightweight and not a Piccolo

henk4 · 12 Sep 2006, 10:28 (Ref:1708683)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belmondo

Well, today's millionaire racers will insist on everything

In the case of Monaco, it is not the racers but the organisors (whether they are millionaires I would not know) that invite the cars. In case they claim authenticty, Steve Earle of Monterey goes a tat further by even asking the cars to participate in the full historic livery.

macca · 12 Sep 2006, 10:48 (Ref:1708699)

After Nigel Corner's big shunt at Goodwood, when the car was repaired and bought by Tony Smith it ended up with a radiator intake of a strangely flattened shape; now it has the V6 engine it also has a different engine cover with a short high plexi scoop which also looks all wrong. At least the rest of the bodywork is unmolested, so the slots for the V12 exhausts are still there in the sides.

I can't post my own photos just now, but here are a couple of links showing Tony Smith and one of the recreation Bamford/Graypaul cars (which actually look more authentic than Smith's original car now! ) :-

http://www.crash.net/picture_view~ci...g~~pid~214.htm

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/image...aco06/2760.jpg

http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/VV...1246Turn82.jpg

Paul M

**John Turner** · 12 Sep 2006, 13:17 (Ref:1708811)

I've split this off from the Newey accident thread for obvious reasons. If anyone can think of a better thread title I'm open to suggestions.

Reference to Neil Corner and the DBR4 brings back some great memories. Neil was practically unbeatable in this car between 1968 and 1976. It was fantastic for me, an Aston enthusiast, to see this car being driven so well and competitively. It was DBR4/4 and had, quite legitimately a DBR1/300 sports car 3 litre engine, since the car had been sold to Lex Davison in 1961 fitted with such an engine in order to compete in Tasman races.

henk4 · 12 Sep 2006, 13:25 (Ref:1708822)

nice to get this out of the Newey thread.

An odd one that springs to mind was the 1963 Assegai-Alfa Romeo, that ran at the Coys historic in 1997(?) with a 1600 cc Alfa engine as a comtemporary 1500 GP unit was not available. The organisers accepted the engine switch purely out of interest for the unusual machine.

jamesholland · 13 Sep 2006, 13:15 (Ref:1709559)

I suppose the Chorlton Special would fit into this category as it was originally built with a Bugatti T51A engine to make it comply with the 1946-51 GP formula but was later re-engined with a 2 1/2 litre Alta motor to make it compatible with the 1954-60 formula - although I'm not sure it ran as such in period.

Another, albeit similarly seldom seen car, is the 2 1/2 litre Emeryson which runs with a 2.4 litre Jaguar engine after having been previously fitted with 2 1/2 lite Alta and 2 litre (special version of LB6) Aston Martin engines.

It's just occurred to me - probably the most famous example of this genre must be the HWM-Jaguar hill climbed by Rivers-Fletcher and the two Majors Chichester and Lambton and later raced by Kirk Rylands and now Adrian Van der Kroft

**John Turner** · 16 Sep 2006, 13:48 (Ref:1711845)

Connaught B series info. moved here:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88557

bauble · 16 Sep 2006, 15:06 (Ref:1711876)

Not entirely sure which thread I am in at the moment, but I post in here anyway.
Today's (Saturday) Daily Telegraph Motoring supplement has an interesting piece on Ferrari's restoration and authentication department, where for a remarkably reasonable (By Ferrari owners standard) they will provide provenance of your car and/or prepare to the correct specification for it's age. Quite interesting and worth rummaging in your neighbours dustbin to find a copy.

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