The Rain Light & MSA Rant Thread

[JimW]

Slightly off topic (but no more than some of the stuff above )

On the Formula Renault grid at Donington today someone stalled towards the middle of the (huge) grid. Had the sense to switch on his rear light in its flashing mode. Certainly drew attention to him - good thinking.

Nice bright LED light - none of this 21watt glow worm that some of you seem so attached to. Come on people - try to move into the 21st C, even if it is at a crawl.

Jim

[terence]

Formula Renault driver with sense?.I'll bet that light came on automaticalyJoking aside,I really dont understand why this has now come to for-front,this ruling was in place before the start of this season.I did a deal with Lifeline at the NEC last Febuary,bought a number of lights and Extinguishers,the price for the lights was quite agreeable!!

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by JimW

Slightly off topic (but no more than some of the stuff above )

On the Formula Renault grid at Donington today someone stalled towards the middle of the (huge) grid. Had the sense to switch on his rear light in its flashing mode. Certainly drew attention to him - good thinking.

Nice bright LED light - none of this 21watt glow worm that some of you seem so attached to. Come on people - try to move into the 21st C, even if it is at a crawl.

Jim

Fine Jim we'll move no problem but again why does it have to be so bloody expensive and why just an FIA stickered one, why cant a similiar one of the same spec be used this is what galls people, getting the sense that you are being ripped off, if the thing was say £20 which I would suspect is its true market value then I doubt there would be any problem. On my car I have the original high level light on the rear hatch wired in and its very bright I just cannot see the problem with it.

[JimW]

Al - about the costs. I recently was equipping the rescue unit I run with improved lighting. One of the items was a pair of red LED flashing beacons. A little research showed that cheap ones were about £20 (each). A little more research showed that the cheap ones had a very narrow viewing angle, small size and lower brightness. They contained "old" technology diodes which have limited life and tolerance to vibration. So I ended up deciding that the better ones at a cost of £64 + VAT (each) were the sensible buy. Wide angle effect, solid construction and a decent guarantee.

Like so many things, you usually get what you pay for. The fact that certification costs money and the FIA require things with direct safety relevance to be certified adds on a bit. But just think of all those lawyer fees/insurance premiums - "You required him to fit a safety belt but you didn't say it had to be of a proven standard! So a bit rope would have done.".

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

But a light cant they just specify what it should do and the wattage etc and surely that will suffice, I can buy belts from a few different sources and makes so why not the light. 64 quid for a light seems a lot of money to me especially when you have to buy two. Apart from that I have hardly ever had to use them if it gets too bad I pull off. :-)

[Tim Falce]

The only advantage I can see with the LED option is that if a diode blows then you still have loads more illuminated, with a 21W bulb, if that blows you have no light at all.

[Al Weyman]

Yeah and if a diode blows its another £65 if a bulb blows its what, a quid!

[brickkicker]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Yeah and if a diode blows its another £65 if a bulb blows its what, a quid!

But if only one diode is out then there is no problem, you can keep using it. Not sure how long these diode's last but im guessing they will last a long time if they are wired in properly.

[dtype38]

Would be interesting to see some real world stats on how long high intensity l.e.d.s actually last. I've seen the odd one blown on the early sets fitted to busses in our area, and even once or twice I've noticed a gap in those long rows used as stop lights in the back screen of some top end cars. So that would suggest they are pretty robust. But if one should blow is that an MOT failure, or scrutineering failure? If not, then is two blown, or ten, or 25%, or 50%? Anyone?

[Lola]

I cant understand why an FIA stickered light from Merlin or Tweeks costs around £40 to £60 when exactly the same light from RS or Maplin costs around £9? Where’s the justification in that. I know they are the same. You just have to put your own resistor inline to drop the voltage to around 9vdc.

[graeme]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Would be interesting to see some real world stats on how long high intensity l.e.d.s actually last. I've seen the odd one blown on the early sets fitted to busses in our area, and even once or twice I've noticed a gap in those long rows used as stop lights in the back screen of some top end cars. So that would suggest they are pretty robust. But if one should blow is that an MOT failure, or scrutineering failure? If not, then is two blown, or ten, or 25%, or 50%? Anyone?

IIRC there was a scrutineers advice snippet in MS! a few months ago that suggested that 10% failed "bulbs" in an LED was fine.

We are going to have to get these - so what's the best price? Can someome organise a bulk discount? When we all needed plumbed-in fire extinguishers a few years ago, Lifeline did a great discount - can they are others be persuaded to do this again?

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

especially when you have to buy two.

Only need one on the centreline of the car Al.

Originally Posted by Lola

I cant understand why an FIA stickered light from Merlin or Tweeks costs around £40 to £60 when exactly the same light from RS or Maplin costs around £9?

I see a large market in FIA stickers

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Lola

I cant understand why an FIA stickered light from Merlin or Tweeks costs around £40 to £60 when exactly the same light from RS or Maplin costs around £9? Where’s the justification in that. I know they are the same. You just have to put your own resistor inline to drop the voltage to around 9vdc.

Not so.

Originally Posted by the Maplin website

Q) Would it be possible to use this as a stop/taillight unit ? ie stop and taillight - Phil
A) no - it is not bright enough.

And that's not taking into account that you need a resistor (they say 10 ohms). So you need to connect that and then package it securely and weather protect it. And don't forget to protect it from reverse voltage which will kill it. What size diode would you buy?

So it's not the same, not bright enough, not packaged for the intended use and you need some (modest) electronic knowledge.

Don't know at what you value your time and what price you put on reliability?

Jim

[johnw]

Originally Posted by JimW

So it's not the same, not bright enough, not packaged for the intended use and you need some (modest) electronic knowledge.

.
Thanks Jim. It seems like a proper bargain now

[brickkicker]

The MSA say that you are allowed 10% of the bulbs out before it needs to be changed, that means about 6 LEDs. I tried to find out the FIA stand but couldnt find it on there website

[Lola]

10 ohm resistor around 5p and dont bother with a diode. I have run one of these for the last 8 years on various cars. To weather proof them i used heat shrink (slide over the doide and connections and shrink using a heat gun). Im an electrical engineer so i know its safe and would be reliable.

[Podd37]

While I can see the arguments for these lights on single seaters, can anyone tell me the amount of accidents they will prevent. The vast majority of saloon/sports car type shunts involve a driver trying the impossible into a non existant gap whether its wet or dry! How many drivers here have been hit on a straight in the wet while driving? So what exactly is the benefit? If a saloon car has 2 21 watt rear lights, a fog light and brake lights why does it need another light?

[johnw]

Just needs Al to print a few stickers then Lola

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Lola

10 ohm resistor around 5p and dont bother with a diode. I have run one of these for the last 8 years on various cars. To weather proof them i used heat shrink (slide over the doide and connections and shrink using a heat gun). Im an electrical engineer so i know its safe and would be reliable.

I've done this but still have trouble with the LEDs blowing, what's going wrong?

[AndyV]

I use a electronic voltage regulator to run the supply through to my Maplin LED light. Avaliable on ebay to replace the mechanical lucas regulator used on british cars of old. Never had a LED blow since.

Am not an electronic engineer so no idea how it works, it just does. Now where can I get those FIA stickers

Andy

[Lola]

I use a 63ohm resistor. They were what i had around at the time and never had an led blow. I'd think it was safer to use inexpensive lights as when the led's go you just spend another £8 or so. Whereas if i'd paid £90+ i'd be very reluctant to pay out more and keep using a 'faultyish' unit.
The voltage regulator sounds great. You just need to keep that voltage down to around 9v. Any more then you will blow led's and once one goes others will follow in quickly

[Austinspace75]

This is a senseless waste of money as far as I'm concerned. Why does the MSA constantly pander to the FIA's every whim?.. If they aren't able to properly argue sense in cases such as this and the myriad of other rules we've seen needlessly degrading everyone's bank account and ultimately, our desire to be a part of future club motorsport then they're failing us all. Those that feel this is all 'just fine' are exactly the reason why this stuff goes on and on. Essentially, its much easier for the FIA and MSA to mandate rules that they know a large section of entrants will dumbly accept than it is to rely on exactly the people that are at race meetings to determine the acceptibility of race cars in matters such as these. i.e. The Scrutineers.

All the rules need do is state that all cars must be adequately lit at the rear and leave it up to the trained examiners to make a judgement in the same way that they do with most of the other bits of the highly complicated machine that is a racing car. But, I suppose if you're sat bored in an office in Paris in a highly paid job, you've got to look like you're doing something....

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by johnw

Only need one on the centreline of the car Al.




I see a large market in FIA stickers

Got two cars though John!

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Austinspace75

This is a senseless waste of money as far as I'm concerned.........

Well said, totally agree but, in the end, tough. You either comply or spectate.

What I have always been really puzzled about is why there isn't a competitor to the MSA. Why hasn't someone just said "sod it, I am going to start my own race series and have absolutely nothing to do with the MSA"? Is there some legal or contractual impediment to them or is it just because nobody really cares that much to put in the massive effort required?

[Al Weyman]

Well Spedeworth have operated for years without them.