FF1600 Kent power output

[Flavio Galtieri]

What would you expect a (legal) winning engine in FF1600 Kent from a respected builder to be showing on the dyno?

[kartingdad]

All the engines built produce really good figures. They aren't going to tell you that the engine they have just built is, shall we say, average, LOL.

All you can hope for is that the collection of bits in your engine are working their hardest for you.

[Shoestring]

Also it depends on which dyno it is measured on.

Different Dyno measurements vary a lot and the only thing you can hope to do is get a before recon figure, and an after recon figure, to properly measure the improvement gain.
Just plucking figures out of the air from different engineering companies different dyno's is almost meaningless.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by Shoestring

Also it depends on which dyno it is measured on.

Different Dyno measurements vary a lot and the only thing you can hope to do is get a before recon figure, and an after recon figure, to properly measure the improvement gain.
Just plucking figures out of the air from different engineering companies different dyno's is almost meaningless.

Absolutely right. 102 on one machine will read 108 on another, all you can measure against is the previous half dozen or so engines tested on the particular machine.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Thanks for the replies. I take the point about different dynos and the before and after check being the most useful.

What I'm trying to ascertain is, if my engine is showing, say, 106 bhp on a particular dyno and is considered "average" what would a "really special" engine show on the same dyno?

I realise Kents differ in output and often for no obvious reason (so I'm told) but I'm trying to get a handle on exactly what sort of disparity we're talking about so I can decide whether or not it's worth doing something about it.

[Shoestring]

Dunno, because as previously stated one dyno's 106bhp is another dyno's 110bhp.
So how long is a piece of string?
Don't worry about it, far more gains can be had in the area's of setup and tyres than worrying about what your engine output is. If it has been rebuilt by a reputable builder, just accept that it will be fine. 99% of the time it will.

The big differences are made by:
1. Driver
2. Set up
3.Tyres

[Flavio Galtieri]

Shoestring, I take those points on-board and agree there's almost always room for improvement with chassis and driver at any given circuit.

However, in my experience winners in this sort of single seater (in dry conditions in a competitive series) normally have an engine at or close to the maximum possible under the rules and at least very close to the power of their main rivals.

I was just trying to find out what sort of range we are talking about if, say 106 was "average" and you put the famous 'Patch' on the same dyno what sort of figure would you expect? Or perhaps it's not outright power at all but more torque lower down? Just trying to get a handle on it that's all.

It may well be that nobody knows why one Kent engine turns out better than another. It just happens.

[Also a Believer]

There are lots of theories on this subject, stories of blocks and heads being buried in the back yard for years is one of them. The truth is that these items are cast and then bored, if the allignment is off a poofteenth then this causes drag on the moving component. What has been said to you here is true, My FF Engines on the same Dyno ranged from 106-112 HP. Take it a stated concentrate on set-up, and driving style before worrying about 1-2HP. Simply compnents work better together than others, and its the parts not the builder most of the time.

[Flavio Galtieri]

OK Thanks everyone. I think I get it now.

[driftwood]

also take into account a damn good carb!
plus dough nut eating driver over pubescent jockey racing the same model of car down the staright even if he has 10 bhp less he may get to the braking pint before you can brake later car turns in better etc
its not all down to the motor but having a good "strong" motor is useful if you can afford to acquire one

[RF_Racer]

Maybe you should hire Tristan Schumacher to drive yor car!

[driftwood]

head will not fit into the cockpit!

[Gungebucket]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

What would you expect a (legal) winning engine in FF1600 Kent from a respected builder to be showing on the dyno?

There has always been a load of bull about engine power outputs. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly there is a tendency for people to exaggerate, not a lot you can do about that! Secondly the dynamometers and associated instruments are not alway calibrated on a routine basis and the incorrect results are often therefore obtained. Thirdly is the question of correction factors. The engine's power output is affected by atmospheric pressure, humidity and intake air temperature. Without knowing which standards the power output has been corrected to, it is not possible to make meaningful comparisons.

Personal experience on testing FF1600 Kent engines on properly calibrated dynos with correction to DIN standards showed the following:-

Bog standard 1600GT engine with vehicle (Mexico) full exhaust and air filter 88 bhp. Winning FF1600 engines 99 to 102 bhp.

[driftwood]

i agree with what you say i hear 110 for good motors but what dyno wind direction time of day was it run
proof of puding is in the long drag down the straight and how quick it pulls out of the corners

[mwg]

With reference to this thread, I have written an article "Simulating Formula Ford Engine Performance with rFactor". See http://www.number66.net/simulating-f...-with-rfactor/

[robm]

Thanks for posting the sim info. Really interesting stuff. It would be Interesting to apply weight differences to see what a penalty us larger drivers suffer.... or perhaps I don't want to know. A new engine and a diet is an obvious requirement for next year.

Thanks again.

[Athgoe Racing]

Great stuff mwg, from the test i heard done on the track with weight it is about 0.1 for every 10kgs on a 60sec lap would be intresting if it works out the same on the sim.

[Flavio Galtieri]

I agree weight, being the other important variable, would be interesting to simulate.

We always try to end the race at about 503-504 kg s allowing for a red flag and another green flag lap plus variance on the scales between tracks.

It's fascinating to see that most of the time, a driver's best lap will be at the end of the session. This is not just because he's "in the groove" after 10 laps or so but because the car is obviously faster. The challenge is getting the tyres to be at optimal pressure/ temperature on that lap, which I guess is why you see some drivers come into the pits halfway through a session to rebalance the pressures.

Of course the heavier driver also suffers because he will need to run slightly different suspension settings, preload etc to maintain ride height and the extra weight will affect the roll centre of the car.