HANS Devices - Discussion from Andy Neate thread.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

IIRC it's compulsory in Irish motorsport next year, or is that only stage rallies?

As I understand it that only applies to stage rallies.

[Sarah Jane Burrows]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Thanks Sarah.

Funny enough I stuck a neck brace on for the first time yesterday as I cannot wear it in my other car as I need to see the centre console and guess what I slammed it into the pit wall! No were near as hard as Andy of course and probably doing only about 50 or 60mph (it was on the first lap out the assembly area so don't laugh!) but may have been fate because my neck felt fine afterwards and it was quite a whack!

You're welcome Al, it just goes to show that these devices do help. I do not know if there is anything that is ever going to be 100% effective. But anything that helps to enable you to get out of a car safe and sound after a crash on the track has to be worth it right???

[Peter Mallett]

Absolutely Sarah Jane and I'll add my welcome to Tim's.

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

As I understand it that only applies to stage rallies.

Correct Peter.

Afaik, will be mandatory for all MI sanctioned events from 2010.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

then I will make the point again that it's my neck and I will make the decision, I do not want to be told. Carrot, not stick, please.

That is what a lot of ppl thought on this side of the pond too. However, as of Last July 1, all Racing sanctioning bodies REQUIRE a use or a Head and Neck restraint, HANS, R3 Device http://www.pitstopusa.com/SearchResu...ategoryID=4926 or you dont race.

And for ppl who wanted the Carrot, well they did not get to race any more.

Just do it.


Go to the HANS web site and look at their informaiton

[Les]

putting in my 2penny worth as a non-racer but one of those who has seen a few friends in some horrendous accidents - you have to wear race overalls and I don't see any discussions about paying out for them so why not a Hans device which is proven to save lives.

I remember someone saying if you only value your head cheaply then put it in a cheap helmet - same goes for Hans. IMO

[MagnetON]

An offer from Max Tyler

Originally Posted by Max Tyler

I'm selling HANS Sport devices at £555 at the moment, with Uvex HANS post-equipped helmets for £433.58 (all inc VAT). I can sell the pair for £888, a saving of £100! At this rate, I'm subsidising the HANS with the profits from the helmet, but if we can get a consortium of at least 10 who want a HANS device, then I can offer discounts on the HANS device alone. There's an outside chance the price will go down in the new Year, so I'm willing to get people together for delivery in Jan or Feb. I'm happy to take orders now (with a deposit) while we get the numbers together. The more we get, the more discount I can offer!

For further information you can e-mail Max: thinair@racewear.co.uk

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Thanks Sarah.

Funny enough I stuck a neck brace on for the first time yesterday as I cannot wear it in my other car as I need to see the centre console and guess what I slammed it into the pit wall! No were near as hard as Andy of course and probably doing only about 50 or 60mph (it was on the first lap out the assembly area so don't laugh!) but may have been fate because my neck felt fine afterwards and it was quite a whack!

The HANS website says that neck braces are for comfort only, and offer no protection in a crash. QED, you'd have been feeling fine without a neck brace.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by graeme

The HANS website says that neck braces are for comfort only, and offer no protection in a crash. QED, you'd have been feeling fine without a neck brace.

That is, of course, what the "HANS" people say... not sure the neck brace makers agree. Personally, from a cursory look at the mechanics of what sort of protection each have to offer, I'd have to say that the neck support seems to offer little if no benefit in a front-on impact. But then, I thought it was an aid against side impact.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

Correct Peter.

Afaik, will be mandatory for all MI sanctioned events from 2010.

And unfortunately you will see a drop in numbers in racing and rallycross. The correct seat / helmet / device and belts combo will be dearer than most F. Vee or Fiat Uno's.
Leave it to people to decide surely. In the middle of everything else surely piling expense on drivers is a bad thing? And why only HANS units? I could be wrong here but are there not other types availabe and used in the US?

[graeme]

Originally Posted by dtype38

That is, of course, what the "HANS" people say...

Surely the HANS people wouldn't lie

I've always thought that HANS was an all-or-nothing device - it stops you dying of a hangman's fracture in a 11 o'clock impact. If you weren't going to die of a broken neck, it does nothing/very little - is this correct?

Thankfully, the number of fatalities in circuit racing is relatively small, but the number of drivers wearing HANS is still relatively small (in Club series, I'd reckon 10% or less - in my championship, I can think of 2 out of 120+ drivers). From the fatalities I've heard of in the last few years, it sounds as though HANS could have saved one or two, but would have done nothing to help in the majority. (I’m happy to concede that it sounds as though HANS saved Andy’s life, but I’ve also repeatedly heard it said that it was key it the survival of the Ginetta driver who had a big one at Oulton earlier this year – to my untrained eye, it looked like a long, long rollover with no quick stops which a HANS could play a part in). Yes, one death is too many, but we're doing a dangerous sport - the only way to make it completely safe is not to do it. Club-level drivers should be free to decide whether they want to wear a HANS or not - IMHO you’d be mad not to at Britcar level, or on Rockingham oval where 11 o'clock hits into the wall are much more common, but at a level where it’s a third of a season’s racing costs, I'd like to have the choice.

[kjw]

I recently had a spin and the front nearside of my car hit the armco barrier. Although the car was damaged I was not hurt, the one thing I remember was my Hans straps snapping tight. Quite reassuring.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by kjw

I recently had a spin and the front nearside of my car hit the armco barrier. Although the car was damaged I was not hurt, the one thing I remember was my Hans straps snapping tight. Quite reassuring.

Does this mean the straps need replacing? Do they stretch like a seatbelt?

[Teletubby]

The recommendation is that, yes, they are replaced after an impact. The straps are about $50 a pair if I remember correctly.

Unfortunately after a big accident there is no way of knowing if the device itself needs to be replaced as there is no way of testing them and so the manufacturers recommend you replace the entire device.

[Al Weyman]

Then no doubt put the old one on eBay!

I can't see how the neck brace can't just do anything and thats it, when I was wearing mine it fits tightly under the helmet and stops your neck lurching forward I could'nt even look down when wearing it which is why I could not wear it in one of my cars as I need to see the centre consol, surely that must have some degree of help from whiplash if nothing else.

[AU N EGL]

but would that neck brace prevent the head from moving if you had a head on accident at over 50 mph?

At first I though my HANS was restrictive, but you get use to it. Now I would not drive on track without one.

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I can't see how the neck brace can't just do anything and thats it, when I was wearing mine it fits tightly under the helmet and stops your neck lurching forward I could'nt even look down when wearing it which is why I could not wear it in one of my cars as I need to see the centre consol, surely that must have some degree of help from whiplash if nothing else.

I can't touch the steering wheel with my helmet (by about a foot) when strapped into my car, but in a crash its possible that it'd happen. There's a lot of force going on in a crash. And look at the difference in density between standard rollbar padding - which everyone likes 'cos its squishy - and FIA-approved stuff, which is rock-hard. It needs to be, to stop your helmet hitting the metal bar with the forces involved. I can see the truth in the HANS claim that a bit of squishy foam around your neck isn't going to do much.

[johnw]

Not just a HANS claim Graeme.

Assume a 2 metre crash distance (two row tyre wall backed by concrete or buried armco and a half metre allowance for vehicle crush.)

@40 mph = 8g
@60mph = 18g
@100mph = 50g

Average human head = 4.5 kgs
So the weight compressing the foam neck brace would be circa
36 kg
81 kg and
225 kg respectively.

Try standing on a foam neck brace and see how much it resists.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by johnw

Average human head = 4.5 kgs

Now how does that compare to an average drivers head? Doesn't the weight of the excessive ego come in to play?

[johnw]

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by Podd37

I could be wrong here but are there not other types availabe and used in the US?

You're not wrong. There are LOADS now.

The most famous will be the HANS, then possibly Hutchens device (http://www.hutchensdevice.com/)

Then there are a few interesting contenders:

The Isaac system (http://www.isaacdirect.com/) uses a better harness tethering system, and actually comes with dampers! - they have a video on their site showing a HANS device slipping out from the belts, whereas their system cannot. This alone could be a good case for choosing Isaac over HANS.

In the same vein, the brand new DefNder thing looks good too, and they say it's going to be very affordable: (http://www.defnder.com/)

Both of those have passed the SFI 38.1 tests, which is the SFI foundation's testing scheme for neck restraints. The Hutchens device isn't SFI certified, but they have another one out (Hutchens II) which is.

Then there's the R3 (http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com/?ID=27) and Hutchens Hybrid - made from the R3 and Hutchens II (http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com/?ID=74) - both are SFI certified.

Also there's the Leatt Brace (http://www.leatt-brace.com/) which is also SFI certified. Popular with bikers - doesn't rely on seat belts.

I think if anything becomes mandatory, we should be given a choice from any of the SFI certified devices. There are a lot of pros and cons of the various systems.

[graeme]

That Leatt Brace could be interesting - the major cost of using HANS to me would be have the seat belt mounting points moved on the chassis (its never filled me with confidence that the mounts have to be moved from their intended positions, tailored to the individual driver, and using narrow seatbelts that would be illegal without a HANS).

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

I think if anything becomes mandatory, we should be given a choice from any of the SFI certified devices. There are a lot of pros and cons of the various systems.

Chris you are correct. Pluses and minuses of each. I use a HANS and have done so since 05. My HANS does not have the quick release tethers. Many ppl have chosen the R3 unit.

We also have Side impact requirements too. Window Net and Right side net( left hand driver ) or Left side net for Right hand drive.

Or an FIA approved seat with helmet restraint.

We have to replace our harness belts every three years, or after any accident that causes structural damage to the car. Harness webbing stretches quite a bit.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by graeme

I can't touch the steering wheel with my helmet (by about a foot) when strapped into my car, but in a crash its possible that it'd happen. There's a lot of force going on in a crash. And look at the difference in density between standard rollbar padding - which everyone likes 'cos its squishy - and FIA-approved stuff, which is rock-hard. It needs to be, to stop your helmet hitting the metal bar with the forces involved. I can see the truth in the HANS claim that a bit of squishy foam around your neck isn't going to do much.

I don't wear mine with the thought that it will save me in an accident. I wear it because it stops my neck taking all the weight of my head when cornering hard, I find the neck brace transfers part of the support to my shoulders and that way I tend not to have a sore neck after a race.

[johnw]

I looked at the Isaac before buying a Hans, but couldn't see how drilling your crash helmet would be sanctioned by the scrutineers. (It doesn't fit on the Hans mounts).
I note that they are now saying that the mounts can be glued to the helmet?