HANS Devices - Discussion from Andy Neate thread.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

You're not wrong. There are LOADS now.

I think if anything becomes mandatory, we should be given a choice from any of the SFI certified devices. There are a lot of pros and cons of the various systems.

Surely then its time to start shouting to your club reps etc so that as it becomes mandatory (I personally don't think it should but I'm sure it will..) in club racing there is a choice. Over here for anyone in Rallying there is only Hans...tough. And people are walking away from the sport due to the cost.

[Al Weyman]

And there are already lots of people walking away from the sport because of costs without anymore. The bottom line is the thing is just too damned expensive for what it is. If it was made compulsory it should be half the price and not have vat applied either because if its so good then the NHS would save lots of money compared with the vat they may take, same as there should not be vat on any safety equipment but I doubt this lot will see it that way.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

The bottom line is the thing is just too damned expensive for what it is.

Cheaper than a wheelchair...

[Teletubby]

Or a funeral.

[bdwoody]

i just dont see how it works,surely if your head goes forward in a crash and the tethers then take the strain surely the front horn bits will slide down your chest abit or just dig in to your ribs.i've had hundreds of crashes over the years in stock cars as have many oval racers and the only ill effects were wiplash and only on a few occasions. i dont recall anyone having a brocken neck after a biggy,though i could be wrong.i think as many have said it should be an individuals choice as to wether you wear one or not.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Cheaper than a wheelchair...

So the fear factor allows them to sell a piece of kit that could be made for £50 for £500? Surely if its such a life saver it should be made available at a more reasonable price. All joking aside I dont think there would be a huge hue and cry or deserting of the ranks if one of these types of kit was available for say a couple of hundred quid and made mandatory, it just seems to me at the price its not good value for what you get and forget the emotive stuff I am talking about what a thing cost to produce and what its sold at, it doesnt have to be carbon fibre at club level.

[Teletubby]

I think that a large part of the cost is probably product liability insurance. Anything that has this sort of function will cost a fortune to protect yourself against litigation.

In addition, the fees for R&D, testing and licensing have to be amortised across what is going to be a relatively small number of units sold.

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Teletubby

I think that a large part of the cost is probably product liability insurance. Anything that has this sort of function will cost a fortune to protect yourself against litigation.

But basic racesuits and helmets cost from £200, and I'd consider them to have more material and production costs.

[Podd37]

All of which leads us back to product choice. The producers of Hans own the market as its all we are allowed. They set a price and we have to pay. An open market provides product choice (see racesuits and hlemts) and price competition. Don't the EU have things to say about this kind of thing?

[graeme]

It does sound a rotten, ill-informed decision by the Irish MSA.

I reckon you could save more lives by not complusorary introducing HANS in the the UK, but by each driver paying £500 (or £300...) to put Recticel around every circuit (or perhaps just the dangerous corners)?? It would save motorcycles as well (who have a much higher fatality rate). Not going to happen though, is it?

[Peter Mallett]

I notice that there's a NASCAR version that allows the head to turn as normal becuase the tether is a single pice and slides through the slots. The tethers on mine are fixed but it is possible to set them to a comfortable length. They do restrict side views but then again that's what missors are for.

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

They do restrict side views but then again that's what missors are for.

I've seen crashes which I believe were caused by the fact that the driver can't turn his head to see what's beside him, in the mirror's blind spot.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

So the fear factor allows them to sell a piece of kit that could be made for £50 for £500? Surely if its such a life saver it should be made available at a more reasonable price. All joking aside I dont think there would be a huge hue and cry or deserting of the ranks if one of these types of kit was available for say a couple of hundred quid and made mandatory, it just seems to me at the price its not good value for what you get and forget the emotive stuff I am talking about what a thing cost to produce and what its sold at, it doesnt have to be carbon fibre at club level.

Got to agree with Al on this one. It's such a tiny insignificent piece of equipment that would absorb of 5th of my yearly budget (new helmet, new HANS, new seat, new harness). Yes, I know it *aids* safety, but it is highly overpriced in the UK. It's also the same price in Dollars as Pounds, which simply smacks of the UK sellers ripping off the buyers - again.

Surely if it cost £200 or less, they would sell vastly more than they do know - or are the sellars waiting for it to become mandatory? Then they can rip us off and we have no choice.

Looking at the ones I have seen, I cannot see then costing more than about £50 to make in quantity. It's all very well quoting dev costs, but I would put money on the fact that these have already been covered many times over. Q. Did the FIA spec these? And put money into development?

Product liability? Helmets have a much more important part to play, have a much higher manufacturing cost, and are still cheaper. That's what really annoys me!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by bdwoody

i just dont see how it works,surely if your head goes forward in a crash and the tethers then take the strain surely the front horn bits will slide down your chest abit or just dig in to your ribs

It prevents over extension of the neck. Vertebrae are a bit like a 'slinky' under extreme forces and that's something you really don't want. Even assuming they don't break, they may not align too well on the way back, and then there's neck muscles which aren't supposed to stretch like that. HANS should prevent all of this (within reason of course) and so it's not just preventing death, it should reduce severity of injury and recovery times from lesser impacts.

As a marshal, I've attened incidents where the top of the driver's helmet was damaged from impact with the wall, and when you work out how far his shoulders were from the wall at the time it's astonshing how far the head travels.

[haggispeed]

HANS devices are compulsory in one formula at British club level - SaxMax with the 750 m/c, HANS is mandatory for these young drivers. Totally agree with the pricing comments, nearly double that paid for a Bell helmet.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Sorry that really is complete nonsense. Really in all my years I haven't had to turn my head further than the mirror to see what's beside or near me.

When I have been collected whilst turning in, its when I should have been given the corner anyway! You can't make a safety device a racing accident issue.

I agree with Peter here

Many drivers just dont have their mirrors positioned correctly, or more likely never use their mirrors, to see they are about to be overtaken by a faster car.

[AU N EGL]

Can you guys buy them here and have them sent overseas?

US Prices

a HANS Sport is from $595 to $ 695

Extra Series from $895 to $930

HANS Devices Professional Versions $1295

an R3 is $995


I can help you find an inexpensive US vendor if some one likes. Just PM me

Tom

[JamesH]

Someone in US could buy then send them, you would have to pay import duty if noticed, but may get away with calling it a gift.

However, we cannot phone a shop in the State and get them the send it - they won't do that (against their distruibutor agreement), that's so the UK distributors can continue to extract their pound of flesh.

James

ps. Next time I'm in the States (will be Irvine or Sunnyvale , CA), I'm going to get one if sensibly priced - anyone from US know any places in that area that would sell them?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by bdwoody

i just dont see how it works,surely if your head goes forward in a crash and the tethers then take the strain surely the front horn bits will slide down your chest abit or just dig in to your ribs.i've had hundreds of crashes over the years in stock cars as have many oval racers and the only ill effects were wiplash and only on a few occasions. i dont recall anyone having a brocken neck after a biggy,though i could be wrong.i think as many have said it should be an individuals choice as to wether you wear one or not.

Here you go: http://www.darkhorseracingsafety.com...ANS_Forces.jpg

Look at this PDF file

http://www.darkhorseracingsafety.com...son9_13_04.pdf

[SWCRacing]

Whether the MSA make the use of HANS devices mandatory in the next couple of years may not matter.
I am pretty sure that the use of HANS device is mandatory under the International Sporting Code for all events listed on the International Sporting Code from 2010.
Would this then include any event which is NEAFP??? That would get the majority of club events in the UK if it did without the MSA having to introduce a contentious regulation

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I notice that there's a NASCAR version that allows the head to turn as normal becuase the tether is a single pice and slides through the slots.

Available as an upgrade now Peter.
I bought one and have used it in tha last couple of races.

My only concern having used a Hans for three years was an inability to see what's behind when you are joining (or rejoining) the track at an oblique angle. The mirrors didn't help and I couldn't see more than 45 or so degrees from straight ahead.
The sliding tether is a big improvement allowing close to 90 degrees

Bought mine from Stand21, but other suppliers are available.

[midgetman]

It's going to be interesting to see whether I can continue racing an MG Midget when I get mine....I can't climb into the car with my helmet on normally. When getting out I have to remove my lid, or pull myself horizontally across the ground, it's pretty funy to watch but b. uncomfortable!

Now may be the time I admit "anno domini" is catching up and move to an old man's car (MGB or something else) with bigger doors!

[Eddy V]

Max, you wouldn't be the first guy with a Hans to get trapped between rollcage and seat (or whatever). Seen it once and it was quite funny, luckily the guy was parked in a very safe spot.

That Hans is expensive is mainly because of greed from the makers. It can be done cheaper, at least now with mass production.
But wait untill the FIA puts a "Standard" with date on it, then all hell will break lose.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Looking at the ones I have seen, I cannot see then costing more than about £50 to make in quantity.

That sounds about right--100 pound sterling at the most.

It's all very well quoting dev costs, but I would put money on the fact that these have already been covered many times over. Q. Did the FIA spec these? And put money into development

FIA was quoted in 2003 to have spent about $750,000 adapting the design to F1 cars. In the states the R&D was covered by GM racing, so HANS has probably spent little or nothing up front.

ISAAC markets direct world-wide. The only incremental expense is shipping and any duties that might be required.

[midgetman]

That'll be

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/product.html#


It's a different concept to HANS, and as it's not FIA-homologated we couldn't use it in International events. But I suppose UK events would be OK?

Can you get out of the car quickly? It looks like you need to unclip something to release you from the belts, unless I've misunderstood it. I also think that any UK scrutineer would be VERY suspicious of any helmet that bore the markings of a Max having attacked it with a drill