The cost of race entries 2011

[skeggy]

I don't drive or pay the entry fees but I do help out with a car and I'm alway happy pimp my tanktape and tyrap skills to anyone racing at Cadwell.

We have talked about this recently and came to these conclusions:

Circuits owners charge race organisers a fee to cover the circuit owners cost.
Race organisers set the entry fees to cover this fee and thier costs.

Therefore neither have any need/want to advertise a meeting.
So the amount of paying spectators is minimal - if people don't know that a meeting is happening they will not turn up.
If the circuit owners got more paying spectator then the cost of hiring the circuit would fall?

Recently we had a spectator at Croft tell us he was just passing so paid to come in, didn't know what was on but came in anyway.
I got some tyres taken off by my local small tyre place, told the guy what was happening and he and a mate paid to get into Cadwell.

So what do you think we can do?

I'll start with my thoughts:
Do as much as possible to market the meeting you are racing in.
Some of you write a lot on here why not write a small bit and sent it to the local paper for the circuit you are going to race at?

Make spectators a welcome in the paddock, talk to them, answer any question etc. Make them welcome so they want to come again.
(I guess/hope that you all do that already)

Put pressure on the circuit owners/race organisers to market the meeting.

You may feel that, as I don't pay the entry fee then, maybe I shouldn't be bothered/have an opinion.
But I do love helping out and would hate for racing to get to expensive for the people that do pay the entry fee so that they can't race - hope you see what I mean and don't shoot me down.

[graeme]

Its a lovely idea - and it'd be great to have more spectators - but if we bring in more spectators, the circuits will take more on the gate and... nothing else. They'll shrug, say "we've made some more on the gate than usual", charge the organiser the same and the organiser will charge us the same. Even if they did charge the organiser less, they'd still charge us the same entry fee!

Perhaps better to give out all your free tickets and get people to come along to watch - maybe they'll spend some money on burgers. It has been suggested we let all speccys in free, but its never seemed to work out. Though I cmpletely agree about being approachable and friendly to paying punters - I remember the first time I approached a racer at a circuit twenty years (Beetle Cup) and was made welcome

[skeggy]

Originally Posted by graeme

Its a lovely idea - and it'd be great to have more spectators - but if we bring in more spectators, the circuits will take more on the gate and... nothing else. They'll shrug, say "we've made some more on the gate than usual", charge the organiser the same and the organiser will charge us the same. Even if they did charge the organiser less, they'd still charge us the same entry fee!

Graeme - you're as cynical as me

To put it another way, if the people that are racing prove that their races bring paying spectators in then maybe, just maybe, the circuits will want those races at their circuits?

Remind me, just how much is Silverstone paying Bernie

[midgetman]

My father always claimed that back in the '50s if there was a good gate, clubs went round handing back money. It may be the apocryphal ramblings of a rose-tinted wanabee racer though...

To be fair to Castle Combe, they always used to have a sliding scale of entry fees depending on the grid sizes. I don't know if they still do.

[RTH]

In the 1970s 10 practice sessions and 10 races in one day were normal ,the grids were capacity plus perhaps 6 reserves at Lydden ,Brands and Snetterton, especially.
Many ,times my entry fee was returned because the races were oversubscribed. You had to enter months in advance to get an entry.Everything and everyone including club principals were unpaid volunteers, all aspects, vehicle regs etc cost were deliberatley kept low.

In 1973 entry fee for a Mini 7 race was £7 it was affordable for anyone ,enormous grids, we once started 48 minis in a race on the old 3 1/2 mile circuit at Snetterton in 1972.
10 races with full grids and a vast variety of classes and types of car, Autosport and motoring news covered club racing in great detail with pages of photos from the previous weekends club races.
The quantity and crucially the quality and wide spectrum of cars produced good spectator crowds.
In the 80s at the Willhire 24hr race at Snetterton every year 78 + teams applied for one of just 38 places on the grid. In the early 90s in the Foulston era circuit charges were put up massively to the BRSCC entry fees went from £400 to £2000 and only 12 cars entered the race was cancelled and killed stone dead for ever.
Ford Motor Co and The Sun newspaper sometimes put on free to spectator races and the crowds were in the tens of thousands like a football crowd, literally massive never seen before.
Like every other product it all starts with price.
To keep charging a smaller and smaller group of competitors higher and higher fees is the road to disaster, quite simply the circuit will get sold off for building.
Cost need to be drastically cut, may be cut out the clubs altogether and circuit owner run the race meeting and all the finances removing a layer of management cost and circuit owners might then understand about the need to draw in the paying public.

Insurance needs to be looked at. All the new vast run off areas the high debris fencing and the lack of spectator fatalities or even injuries for decades now mean that accepting these vast public liability policy charges is plain wrong and the ought to cast their net abroad for far more competitive charges.
Investigate making race meetings members only for spectators ,where they sign away unlimited cover as a condition of coming in to a track.

Costs for competitors and spectators need to be slashed, needs to be much more entertainment in the day, much more publicity and much more magazine covererage.

Otherwise it is all doomed and in a few more years all any of us will have is memories of club racing.

[RTH]

Originally Posted by midgetman

My father always claimed that back in the '50s if there was a good gate, clubs went round handing back money. It may be the apocryphal ramblings of a rose-tinted wanabee racer though...

To be fair to Castle Combe, they always used to have a sliding scale of entry fees depending on the grid sizes. I don't know if they still do.

This is true, in a book about the circuit called Davidstow close to Bodmin moor in the mid 50s 20,000 spectators would line the flat airfield circuit, no entry fee and £10 start money for the 5 most important races and £75, £50 and £25 prize money for the races. That is 55 years ago that was a lot of money in those days because spectator charges, just a few shillings each were ploughed back to competitors which made it all bigger and bigger.

[Al Weyman]

Very, very good post(s) that I agree with 100% and hqve been banging on about for years, the current state of things cannot continue indefinitely, its finite and will end in failure for the sport. Some hard decisions need to be made by those that can really influence costs. I was racing when Miss Foulston dealt her first death blow and things went down hill ever since, I was paying around £40 an entry prior to that.

As for insurance, a racer has a crash during a race and despite signing away his rights gets awarded millions compensation after taking the organising club to court. That should never have been allowed to happen and immediately stuck £35 on to the cost of entry. Then we had the NIMBY law by the well meaning Labour party which was put in place to give people some power against noisy neighbours holding parties till 3 in the morning but unfortunately it also empowered the spoil sports and allowed them to take action against circuits that had operated for years before most of them had moved into the area.

When I was running a club and series after Foulston struck I asked a high ranking BARC official suggesting that these hikes in fees were madness and would lead to failure what he would prefer, 35 car grids with reserves at £50 a time or 10 to 15 car grids at £100. His reply was the later as it was less work for them! Now maybe said in jest I dont know but it was two fingers up to competitors, spectators and marshals.

He also told me one of his biggest expenses was timekeepers, well do we really need them any more now we have TSL? As long as we sign a form stating in the event of a systems failure we will line up on the grid determined by another method even pulling straws then there would be no need for the expensive manual back up.

[RTH]

Spot on Al.
We will soon be entering as a nation in to an era of austerity , due to the colossal debts racked up by the last government, not seen for at least 35 years. It may well go on for many years and almost everyone will feel the squeeze.
Motor racing is , even at present in no way prepared to meet reducing discretionary spending, very soon it will be pitched in to crisis. I don't have any confidence it will be successfully resisted by people running things at present.

[vjay48]

Al makes the point about cost of timekeeping,without opening the transponder debate again,has anyone explained why the transponders are not used to time the cars,only identify them ? Or do the clubs/msa want to keep tsl etc on the gravy train,same as championship co-ordinators forcing you to pay 250-300 pounds for "security guard" tv coverage. I think the BRSCC started the rot of binning the prize money of championship sponsers,my first race in the eighties,i came last but third in class,£25 prize money,same as my entry fee.

[Tal Aras]

Originally Posted by skeggy

To put it another way, if the people that are racing prove that their races bring paying spectators in then maybe, just maybe, the circuits will want those races at their circuits?

Most people don't realise how cheap and exciting club motorsport is to go and watch. They only hear about how expensive the GP is and assume the rest is as expensive. That 12 and unders get in free to most events surprises most of the parents I know. As a marshal with two kids, Brands Hatch is a really cheap day out for them. Even if I wasn't marshalling, £20 for two adults to get in is about the cheapest we could manage for a full day out.

As a sport we need to promote this better. Kat Impy very kindly offered to come to my daughters school summer fete this year with her car. Unfortunately her schedule could fit the date but the idea was to let the kids sit in the car and meet a race driver, while promoting going to race meetings to their parents. If we can get them young and still watching Roary, hopefully some of them will stay in the sport as adults.

On a larger scale, maybe clubs could organise stands a County Fairs and the like. A range of cars to get close to and even sit in and drivers and marshals to talk to should attract a crowd.

[vjay48]

It is a cheap day out, bury town fc who play three division down from the football league is £8 for 90 minutes, A club meeting is £12,problem is some of it is not very good,surely culling the number of meetings is the answer this would raise the quality. Heres a thought, at the moment i think you can smoke at a race circuit,is this only "sporting event" that accomodates this?

[Al Weyman]

I certainly can smoke at a club meeting!

[terence]

Originally Posted by Robert Morris

We must all be thinking about budgets etc for 2011 now how do you see the race entry fees going with the smaller grids and less sponsorship.
Do you think the circuit owners will reduce there cost ?

you could always budget for the 360 MRCs day at Snett,you'll not get better value.

[Al Weyman]

Thats only good value if the car holds together Terence! Hey how about this for a compromise talking of that. Keep entrys as they are but if you dont make the race start for any reason give the competitor half his fee back, every little bit helps and it doesnt have to be in cash just knock it off next entry thus insuringhe is encouraged to come back out.

[DaveGT6]

The only way to offset the ever rising costs of running a race meeting is to get more paying punters through the gates, otherwise it is the competing drivers who have to cover all the costs (obvious I know). Now, if you look back in time, club racing was well supported by high attendance and sponsorship. These days no one attends - why? Well for a start it's boring - yes reality check here but have you stood on a cold windswept bank at Silversnetterdoninpark? Can't hear the PA so no idea what's going on and it isn't anything like the excitment of PC games or even the BTCC (thankfully!) Last meeting I was racing at the high profile well respected journalist commentator was sooo boring I had to jab pins into my eyes to stay awake.

We are not delivering the spectacle that the sophisticated audience of today expects. Some events do deliver - Goodwood, Silverstone Classic as examples. Your regular club race - no. So unless we can make it more relevant to today it will continue to be the racers who have to support all the costs. The world has moved on. So must club racing or die.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Thats only good value if the car holds together Terence! Hey how about this for a compromise talking of that. Keep entrys as they are but if you dont make the race start for any reason give the competitor half his fee back, every little bit helps and it doesnt have to be in cash just knock it off next entry thus insuringhe is encouraged to come back out.

One club used to do this but I wont say who in case it was just done out of the kindness of his heart on the day.

Edited. Just so Andy97 doesn't think I am totally biased the club in question is/was the CSCC.

[RTH]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

The only way to offset the ever rising costs of running a race meeting is to get more paying punters through the gates, otherwise it is the competing drivers who have to cover all the costs (obvious I know). Now, if you look back in time, club racing was well supported by high attendance and sponsorship. These days no one attends - why? Well for a start it's boring - yes reality check here but have you stood on a cold windswept bank at Silversnetterdoninpark? Can't hear the PA so no idea what's going on

We are not delivering the spectacle that the sophisticated audience of today expects. Some events do deliver - Goodwood, Silverstone Classic as examples. Your regular club race - no. So unless we can make it more relevant to today it will continue to be the racers who have to support all the costs. The world has moved on. So must club racing or die.

Yes a lot of truth in this.
Not enough entertainment in the day. The track should have action on it from 8.00am to 6.00pm with no dead track time no lunch break no clerk of the course swanning about in a flash car for hours. Every minute of the day should be filled with practice or races.
It has been ,especially at Lydden Hill by the brilliantly slick military style TEAC club in the 70s/80s 10 hrs of non stop action.

One-make racing is desperately dull for spectators, they want to see scores of different makes and types of cars , technical interest is fundamental to motor racing if you take that away with everyone in the same car vast amounts of interest is lost and .........those David and Goliath battles from the past ... like Minis snapping at the heels of massive Ford Galaxies.Imaginative races based on past experience of what really works for the spectator.
They want free access to the paddock packed out with interesting cars like the amazing spectacle of those Super saloons of the past... a quite ordinary shopping car body fitted with 7 litre V8s F1 engines all sorts of extreme conversions , then Clubmans, FF,Libre,F5000, Sportscars,750s, saloons, historics etc etc plenty of variation and contrast from one race instantly followed on by the next one without pause for breath.It is grey porridge at present it needs transforming to 'awesome' in the true meaning of the word, it can be done , that is how it used to be.
In 2011 this probably means actually starting new types of racing , formulas to suit modern cars available and what might be bult today.

Raised earth banks so spectators can get a commending view of the action.

Give people freedom to roam anywhere around the course, free to take photographs and video sweep away all the officious armband merchants who take such delight in ruining everyone's day...And put up everyone's costs.A vast number of things could be done to improve the experience and get people coming back, what about heavily discounted season tickets to a track ?

Is short consider the paying public for a change. Urgent action is needed.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by RTH

Yes a lot of truth in this.
Not enough entertainment in the day. The track should have action on it from 8.00am to 6.00pm with no dead track time no lunch break no clerk of the course swanning about in a flash car for hours. Every minute of the day should be filled with practice or races.

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with some of your suggestions with regards to making race meetings more attractive to spectators, in my view there are some issues with regards to running meetings on the basis as set above. Firstly, very few circuits (particularly on Sundays) have the capabilities of running from 8am to 6pm inclusive due to church breaks, local planning requirements, etc. It is probabaly true that circuits could attempt to overcome these restrictions, although whether those attempts would succeed is debatable.

Secondly, lunch breaks are needed to allow marshals and officals a bit of break and the chance to grab something to eat/go to the loo etc. I would question whether removing a short break in track action at the middle of the day would really encourage that many more spectators to attend. Finally, with regards to the use of course cars they are needed to collect reports from marshals posts. Whilst are some venues, a circuit peremeter road is available. there are a number of other venues where the only means of reaching certain posts is via the track.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by kipper

..... Finally, with regards to the use of course cars they are needed to collect reports from marshals posts. ......

so we can put a man on the moon but have to drive round the posts to collect bits of paper? Do you realise how nonsensical this sounds to others?
Do it differently! How many times does it need to be said??
(no offense meant...)

[RTH]

Oh sure there will be different local issues at different venues.The principle remains

The whole point is if you have been a spectator at a circuit in recent years you will know there is a "couldn't care less " attitute towards the paying public.
I am not talking about the loss of 5 mins of time here, hours of track time are lost.
If you charge £200 for 25 cars to have 30 mins track (race+practice)time in a day that is £10,000 per hour (yes really do the calculation 200x25x2)
So every hour wasted by bad organisation, vehicle recovery clerk of the course doing laps and just plain nothing going on , could have fitted another 2 extra races raising £10,000 or still better cutting all the other race competitors entry fees by 20 % by having a full programme and fully utilising the circuit facilities paid for in the days rental.
I sat in the woodcote grandstand at the British GP this year for the whole 8 hr day there was just the GP practice and 3 one make support races it was truly dismal and very boring even for me ....never again.

There will be a crisis, motor racing survival is at stake, big changes are either made or it will all be gone.

[R59]

Originally Posted by kipper

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with some of your suggestions with regards to making race meetings more attractive to spectators, in my view there are some issues with regards to running meetings on the basis as set above. Firstly, very few circuits (particularly on Sundays) have the capabilities of running from 8am to 6pm inclusive due to church breaks, local planning requirements, etc. It is probabaly true that circuits could attempt to overcome these restrictions, although whether those attempts would succeed is debatable.

Secondly, lunch breaks are needed to allow marshals and officals a bit of break and the chance to grab something to eat/go to the loo etc. I would question whether removing a short break in track action at the middle of the day would really encourage that many more spectators to attend. Finally, with regards to the use of course cars they are needed to collect reports from marshals posts. Whilst are some venues, a circuit peremeter road is available. there are a number of other venues where the only means of reaching certain posts is via the track.

Sorry Kipper, don't take this the wrong way - but stop making excuses, and start offering solutions.

That is what is wrong - the "powers that be" have this attitude. Find an excuse, and that's the way we'll go.

We either have to consider the entertainment value of the sport, or pack up and go home.

Without grassroots as the foundations, the temple will crumble and collapse, and the foundations are shaky.

We need entertainment for the whole family - that means fairground rides, stalls selling stuff, non-stop track entertainment, which means enough ladies and gentlemen in Orange to let people have their breaks, and still keep it all running. Or entertainment at lunchtime on track where a skeleton staff can be kept in place. We also need childcare/entertainment for the little ones.
(used to have that at Rockingham when that was run properly)

To achieve that you need the mass media behind you, willing to offer more than 1/2" of column space on a page somewhere near the back.

To achieve that, the circuits need a change of ethos, and the clubs need a kick up the arse to amalgamate/trim/organise championships into something worth promoting.

Come back in year's time, and we'll still be saying the same stuff.

[midgetman]

Couldn't agree more with all this. IMO motor racing sometimes looks like the last bastion of pointless beaureaucracy, over-zealous officialdom and general Old Buffer in Blazer bloody mindedness. And we put up with it, mugs as we are.

Take the front page of the MSA web site: "The MSA is the governing body..." not it ISN'T - it's the body we, the competitors, PAY to look after motor sport on our behalf. No competitors, there'd be no MSA, no officials, no marshals. We all depend on each other to enjoy ourselves.

Just my hobby horse.

[RTH]

Quite agree.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

so we can put a man on the moon but have to drive round the posts to collect bits of paper? Do you realise how nonsensical this sounds to others?
Do it differently! How many times does it need to be said??
(no offense meant...)

Make sure someone at each post has a Smart Phone and someone has one at control job done!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

and prices will go up as the clubs/track owner will need the same or more money despite falling numbers unless other ways can be found to utilise the tracks on non race days.

They've always been over priced anyway so nothing new there.

Tim, we've been down this route before with your knocking of the CSCC but what you are sayng is simply not true for the 5 x CSCC series. They are good VFM & entry fees are very competitive with many other clubs. That's why many of the CSCC's races are over subscribed. 600+ members can't all be wrong. It's not the CSCC's fault that you want to race a kit car & CSCC does not cater for them or, that you do not want to wait until the last race of the day to take advantage of the second race at £95.