The cost of race entries 2011

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by andy97

Tim, we've been down this route before with your knocking of the CSCC but what you are sayng is simply not true for the 5 x CSCC series. They are good VFM & entry fees are very competitive with many other clubs. That's why many of the CSCC's races are over subscribed. 600+ members can't all be wrong. It's not the CSCC's fault that you want to race a kit car & CSCC does not cater for them or, that you do not want to wait until the last race of the day to take advantage of the second race at £95.

I know we've been there before but I do have two other cars I could use but the CSCC has never been that welcoming when we've made enquiries in the past and last time I looked they weren't that cheap.
My argument about prices is that the JEC races are not cheap IMO and I could do the PBJ but it's always amalgamated with the sports vs saloon so I couldn't take advantage of it anyway and I'm not the only one who has the same opinion so I feel that the CSCC could be losing revenue by amalgamating them.
On the other hand I will admit that I could have done a couple of other races at Cadwell this weekend and had I thought about it I could have done the £95 race on Saturday but it was my wife's birthday so I would have been pushing it a bit if I'd have disappeared on Friday and not returned until about 11pm last night.

Andy, To balance things up please see my edited post #41

[midgetman]

Actually, I think the CSCC is a very good example of over-high charges, it's just that they're hidden. Entry fees may be kept down but "registration fees" are inflated to make up for it. And they're not the worst....MGCC's Midget Championship is £150, BRSCC's Porsche 924 series is £275! How can one club championship (the MGCC Peter Best) have a £25 registration but another series within the same club be £150? And what do you get for registration? Web site and emails? Doesn't cost £275 p.h. Trophies? Why should I care what they're like, there's never going to be one on my shelf ! If you're well heeled enough to win, then you can afford to buy your own trophies (except in 6-hour races of course ).

And IIRC CSCC charges per series entered, so if you have a tin top and a sports car you're stung twice. And like Tim I had less-than-impressive first contact with the club, too, so maybe they should remember that first impressions last. But that's OT so maybe we should put that discussion away for another day!

[SFurness]

Hi,

My understanding of the basic circuit costs are the organising club hire the circuit and cover their costs/make a profit by selling entries to the racer's.

The paying public's admission money goes to the track owner so the organising club has no incentive to promote the event to the public.

With decent weather Mallory, Cadwell and Oulton usually get quite a few spectators but Siverstone none (club events).

Steve

[RTH]

That is a major part of the problem, it would be vastly better all round if the gate receipts went to the same organisation who staged the meeting as a whole.
Either the circuit owner runs the meeting in its entirety, which has been done before and is more efficient because a whole management layer is removed.
Or the organising club should receive the money taken at the gate as a part of its contract to hire the use of the circuit for the day.
At present we have the worst of both worlds , no one has any financial incentive to advertise and promote the events of the day, it is an inefficient fragmented mess with no one taking responsibility for the entertainment on offer for the day.............as a result the competitor ends up picking up an inflated bill in order for the circuit owner to charge the public to watch him put his life and car at total risk and pay a vast sum to do it!

The circuit owners are short sighted here, they could make a lot more money with a policy thought through, but are too lazy and content to do nothing themselves , just charge fees. Perhaps the clubs ought to become rather more hard headed and cancel many more meetings on the grounds of excessive fees and make gate money a part of the contract.

[midgetman]

That's what Castle Combe does and the grids and spectator banks are packed. It's also what MSV does, and I don't think you can say the same. I wonder if there's just too much racing? Grids diluted, spectators diluted, etc etc

[PenelopePitstop]

Or the organising club should receive the money taken at the gate as a part of its contract to hire the use of the circuit for the day

Would the clubs not look at the cost involved in providing security, crowd saftey stewards, extra insurance, etc and just decide to run closed clubmans meetings?

So every hour wasted by bad organisation, vehicle recovery clerk of the course doing laps and just plain nothing going on , could have fitted another 2 extra races raising £10,000 or still better cutting all the other race competitors entry fees by 20 % by having a full programme and fully utilising the circuit facilities paid for in the days rental

Good point but part of the Senior Clerks job is to balance the time needed to run a meeting. The Clerk of the course doing a lap and vehicle recovery would usally happen at the same time, there is not usally a need to send a car out after every race, unless driver standards are very low. Or should we just throw out a saftey car or a red flag every time a car breaks or hits something?

With reference to lunch breaks, if we had enough marshalls and officals (who are volenteers) we could rotate them and run over the lunch break, but we don't and some meetings/venues have trouble in finding adequate numbers as it is.

[RTH]

There is the potential at nearly every race meeting to get a good spectator crowd we have all seen it before especially at those meetings at Brands promoted by The Sun and Ford Motor Co. with monster crowds, it needs imaginative new ideas and to build up over time regular attendance as was the norm at Brands in the early 70s I used to go every Sunday along with thousands of other people , it was always busy no matter what was on. The South Bank was so packed with cars you had to get there really early to get a place.
Spectators are a really good source of revenue for the day and not to be ignored or dismissed.

The organisation at present is just not good enough and it is costing thousands of pounds per day in inefficiency.
I have seen it done before, seemless machine gun fire races one after another as the last race goes in to the pitlane the next one goes round on its warm up lap. 4 recovery trucks are pre stationed and go across the infield to the incidents without waiting to be told.
Marshals remain stationed at their positions out on the circuit and break in shifts. Britain does not stop for lunch anymore, shops and businesses no longer close for an hour, it is all far too expensive these days to be so wasteful, you keep the show on the road.It needs sharp keen people with a sense of urgency, it can be done.
We have to change because it is not good enough now, it is all too expensive for everyone now and disposable income in the next 10 years will get a lot less and the whole thing is in danger of going under.

Castle Combe is a bit of a special case because they are limited by planning to very few days of the year for running and they have quite a good area of population which is very poorly served by racing venues in that captive area.

[R59]

The other thing that Castle Combe does is only "allow in" well supported series. They do like the "Great and British" thing that Dunflop support, so that means they currently have to put up with the CSL cup (or thimble if it's related to the grid size).

They like entertainment, they like fast. They'd love "big bangers" there, but the neighbour (note I use the singular, not plural) does not.

[THE STAPE]

Can I ask, as many of you will be thinking about budgets for 2011, why it is so hard to find a racing team that are 'seeking sponsorship'.

My experience as a potential sponsor is that starting on Google with just about any search term, it's actually quite hard to find a team or even competitor that is a viable prospect.

As hard as I look, rather than find dozens of Facebook pages or Blogs, etc. (both of which are free BTW), I come across a selection of out-of-date websites, some up to date but overall not really enough to make an informed decision and even make contact with an enquiry.

The whole market for a sponsor seems not to be there.

It's just an opinion but if more competitors has a presence on the web with the keyword 'Sponsorship' included frequently you just might generate some cash.

Before you ask, yes, I have approached teams and the response was to put it mildly, pitiful, some won't respond to emails, some just don't even understand the concept and seem to confuse sponsorship with charity.

As someone who has money to offer, it is easy enough to walk around any paddock and give away money. To actually find a team that are prepared to enter into a sensible conversation is much harder.

Everyone knows that you guys like racing, but *****ing about costs won't help. Generating revenue will.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by graeme

I was going to say that, but don't know much about tax regulations

Depends if the club is registered for VAT or not

[Chris Y]

The Stape - I didn't know people like you existed! I think in all honesty a lot of club-level racers have tried their local companies, not received much of a response, and given up. Certainly that rings true for people I've spoken to.

In that respect, you probably won't find anything about sponsorship on most club-level racing home pages, because quite frankly they're not expecting sponsors to look for them!

A question that I'm sure you get asked a lot: What do you desire to get from your sponsorship money?

[Dom]

Originally Posted by THE STAPE

As hard as I look, rather than find dozens of Facebook pages or Blogs, etc. (both of which are free BTW), I come across a selection of out-of-date websites, some up to date but overall not really enough to make an informed decision and even make contact with an enquiry.

Have you seen ours yet then? http://www.dr-motorsport.co.uk

I have tried sending personalised professional letters to local businesses in the past but not even a hint of a reply. Even my employer isnt interested! Sponsorship is all about who you know etc etc, my only sponsor happened to be a garage that was actually interested in motorsport which is the important thing. Given the ignorance of the public of anything other than F1 it would probably be easier to get sponsorhip as a 'promising footballer'.

[THE STAPE]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

A question that I'm sure you get asked a lot: What do you desire to get from your sponsorship money?

...It's complicated.

First of all, I have no firm evidence that I'll get anything from actually putting my name on the side of a car. That could be one of the reasons sponsors just don't get involved. They need to know that, like mainstream advertising, their spend will be returned. This doesn't actually matter to me.

What I am looking for is an association with a successful team, and it has to be a team. I'll put in money, directly, I'll feature the team and their progress on a blog, watch and learn how they work, etc.

A few good photos would look good on my blog, raise my profile and the teams association with my project, in turn, would raise their profile.

What is tough is finding the right team that are open to an arrangement as described above. Two that I tried in the past just didn't get it.

What was interesting, was that prior to getting involved with one team, I approached a few companies myself to test the water so to speak, the aim was to see what I could bring to the table along with my offer.

...It's difficult to explain without going into details but the result was that I was very close to securing a significant offer that surpassed what I had available. I presented this to the guys I was talking to at the time and whilst one half was able to see clearly what I was demonstrating, the other half just couldn't see the potential. I think they were actually scared by the prospect of their hobby becoming much more serious with obligations.

[Chris Y]

Ok, that sounds like an interesting challenge.

Does the idea scale up? I.e. would it matter how many people were involved - one team, more than one team, etc, etc.?

It sounds very much like this is the sort of offer that is not usually available to the average club racer - most of 'us' end up chasing local companies to put their name on our cars. Some offer more publicity to potential sponsors; events, awareness, introductions. Your idea sounds like more complex.

But you're right about the obligations part. Most want to enjoy their hobby - a little excitement at the weekend, without having to concern themselves with other obligations. It's knowing how to do the right thing for a sponsor to offer them a return on their investment. If such a thing does not exist, the arrangement becomes more of 'patronage' than sponsorship. It's a hard line to tread, both for the club racer and the sponsor.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by THE STAPE

I think they were actually scared by the prospect of their hobby becoming much more serious with obligations.

I think that's the big point. I was tentatively approached on one occasion but I felt I didn't want to get involved as it's my hobby and I'm not sure I want the hassle of having to entertain people at race meetings and not be able to do my own thing so to speak.

[THE STAPE]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I think that's the big point. I was tentatively approached on one occasion but I felt I didn't want to get involved as it's my hobby and I'm not sure I want the hassle of having to entertain people at race meetings and not be able to do my own thing so to speak.

Yes, that could be the problem and I have to say I would feel the same way.

Perhaps what I am looking for is a small team that are successful but are being held back by funds and perhaps some other issues that I could help with. Last weekend I was at the Paul Ricard HTTT watching some Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc. I only saw the qualifying sessions but it was obvious some of these guys could drive and some were not so capable. They could all afford to race one of these machines though, talent or not. What I am interested in, is, as Chris Y puts it, a 'patronage'.

I know there is something I could learn without even going near the paddock. One or two meetings a year would suffice and any other communications could be done via email, etc. What do I offer: Cash, some moral support and as mentioned above some mutually beneficial raising of profiles.

[R59]

I wonder - is your PM inbox full yet??

I wish you were around just over two years ago. I was running a single car outfit, with the plan to expand to a two (or maybe three!) car team running in the SCSA series at Rockingham (a great series long since assassinated). That place was the idea business venue. Great hospitality suites for entertaining YOUR guests, to doing B2B deals - because that's what it's all about. We provide the entertainment for your YOUR guests/clients/prospective clients, they get a great day out, and hopefully YOU get the the success.

That was the way that we were selling it. Companies are not interested in drivers or performance per se, what they want are results for themselves. They will take some credit for helping the really successful driver that makes it, but they are just as likely to drop them like a stone when the returns are no longer there.

I'm always willing to entertain guests, one thing I learned running a much more professional outfit at Rockingham was that the kettle should always be on, and you find time for people who have found time to speak to you.

I don't have the budget to move back to the kind of racing that I want to do (endurance/multi-driver GT's or over to the 'States for some proper oval racing), so I'll carry on with my "toys" until I meet up with that willing backer, and we decide to work together for mutual benefit.

Rob.

[flagwaver]

The other side to this coin is hold closed meetings. With no spectators. That would cut down on some costs and for the number of spectators at some club meetings would hardly make much difference.

Lets not all go down memory lane when 1000's turned up for a club meeting round a few oil drums on an old airfield and think we can go back to that.

Nowadays the circuits we have are businesses, they are there to make money. Most circuits would make as much money from track day as they would a race meeting. The only reason some don't do that is that track day punters prefer to say I took my Car/bike around Brands Oulton etc as opposed to Bedford Autodrome.

As for continuous racing, sounds good but as has been said what about breaks for marshals etc? We are short at most meetings, so the idea of taking breaks in rotation wouldn't work.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I think that's the big point. I was tentatively approached on one occasion but I felt I didn't want to get involved as it's my hobby and I'm not sure I want the hassle of having to entertain people at race meetings and not be able to do my own thing so to speak.

I have to agree with Tim there I have seen people in the past get sponsorship and woefully let down the sponsors and I think i wouldnt be able to offer them much apart from the car as a bill board so I use that for my own little company now.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by flagwaver

The other side to this coin is hold closed meetings. With no spectators. That would cut down on some costs and for the number of spectators at some club meetings would hardly make much difference.

Lets not all go down memory lane when 1000's turned up for a club meeting round a few oil drums on an old airfield and think we can go back to that.

Nowadays the circuits we have are businesses, they are there to make money. Most circuits would make as much money from track day as they would a race meeting. The only reason some don't do that is that track day punters prefer to say I took my Car/bike around Brands Oulton etc as opposed to Bedford Autodrome.

As for continuous racing, sounds good but as has been said what about breaks for marshals etc? We are short at most meetings, so the idea of taking breaks in rotation wouldn't work.

Sorry but you are wrong

A closed meeting costs the same as an open one. to hire a circuit costs the same, the only difference is that if its open to the public THE CIRCUIT gets the gate, not the club, unless its a co- promoted meeting, in which case, that would be a big meeting not a clubman.

A track day is a completely different thing, it is not governed by the MSA, it doesnt need a permit, there is no clerking team etc...that is why it is cheaper and as well as that, its usually on a weekday, when the circuit is not being hired for a race meeting.

[RTH]

Well, saying that nothing can ever be done and we have to put up with things as they are for ever is not going to help at all.
The bare facts are that just taking part at a minimal level has now got so expensive that perhaps half the potential competitors have turned away from it probably for ever.Poor quality and quantity entries also mean no spectators.
Britain is on the verge of a period of unprecedented public spending cuts counted in hundreds of billions over the next decade.
This will result in millions of job losses over time, in both the public and knock on in to the private sectors only this time it will be a lot of very well paid people who will suddenly find themselves out of work.
The consequential contraction of discretionary revenue available for leisure spending will further take away current competitors from motor racing which in many cases will kill off events, meetings and venues.
Like anything else if your prices are too high, you have no customers and then no business.
A crisis is looming and survival means radical thinking and action.

[MartinSmith]

Richard.

We have been down this road before and I am keen to know what you would suggest to change it?

The simple fact is, as we have stated in the past, in order to organise an event that is governed by the MSA in this country (and I am talking about a RACE event as that is decipline that I am from) then there are certain things that need to be done.

A circuit needs to be hired (approx costs 15K -18k plus per day)

A permit needs to be got ( dependant on event but a per capita charge of approx 20 pounds needs to be applied, so if you have say 30 cars thats another 600)

Rescue about 1200 (although you may be lucky and get that in the circuit hire....depends where you are)

Ambulances 1000 per ambulance

Recovery 750 per day for two flat beds with hi abs on the back

Scrutineers - about 1200-1400 depending

Timekeepers about 1200-1500 depending on type of event

Doctors - on average about 140-200 EACH and depending on event...you would need about two to six (lets say three at 150 each..450 then)

Marshals - although they are not paid, you would be a very foolish club if you did not allow for some kind of gratitude to the brave girls and boys in orange lets say the min is about £5 pounds in some way shape or form...and you have...well make it easy 100 marshals...so allow 500 for that

Officials - although these are the same as the Marshals and do this on a volunteering basis, they still have to have say, hotel bills paid and or expenses. now, take a three man clerking team in Race control, plus telephones, secretary of the meeting etc could be anothe couple of hundred maybe three

now....if you have an organising club to get this going....they will have to pay all that out for you and they are going to want their cut for doing that, about 5k ish (unless you are lucky enough to employ the services of 360 MRC which is a non profit org)


SO before you have even promoted it, beforfe you have even got one car to enter and before you have any spectator (which btw as I stated before matters not because the circuit gets the gate NOT the MRC doing the meeting) you have a bill of about 26k

Promotion is the thing that will now cost....and the sky is the limit. The circuit will put it in their calendar, but, they may not promote it and may even not charge and in fact, if its a clubmans permit, they should NOT promote it so forget waving to the crowd...because there wont be one.

I think we have to be realists here. The cost of living has gone up since the days of it being oh so cheap and unfortunately, the simple fact is sport, any sport costs money. Motorsport costs money but an entrance fee is only a small fraction of what a team or driver has to pay. he or she has to prepare the car, test the car, run the car, store the car. he or she has to get suitable safety clothing , helmet etc all sorts and then transport it to a circuit etc, hotels or a modest motor home etc....Entry fees are a proportion.....add up the rest as well (including the annual subscription for your licence.

[midgetman]

Claire, in response to your post is one word: WHY?

That's the situation at the moment, we need to re-think the whole of motor sport and savagely slash beaureaucracy.

One simple example - timekeepers - why? Club 100 runs 50 karts for 2.25 hours with just one person. All kart centres run multi-heat, multi-driver events with a teenager at the helm, it takes about 10 minutes to set up a 50 driver GP.

Scrutineers - scrutineering gets less rigorous each time I race. At the "360" the scrut took more time checking my helmet and overalls than checking the Monty for safety. A clerk could do that, it's just checking for labels and damage. 30 years ago when I started, we could use the scruitineer as an MOT almost!

Yes, I bet you can nickle and dime and justfy every single penny you outlined above, but it's time for someone to stand back and with a clear eye re-design motor sport. It has its origins in 1900s horse racing (hence some of our terms) and hasn't evolved.

How can oval races be so much cheaper? How can continental races be so much cheaper? How can kart centres be cheaper and they even lend you the karts!?

New ideas, break the cosy alliance between MSA and circuits please. I don't pretend to be clever enough to know the answers, I just know the questions need to be asked.

[andy97]

Careful, with radical questions and ideas like that they'll be a man in a Blazer around shortly to put a horse's head in your bed!

[MartinSmith]

Valid points with regards to timekeepers, but, I cannot comment on Karts as I do not come from that area, but there are a couple of things

Re scutineering, a Clerk could not do what a scrutineer does. I have just completed my modular training and while I have to have an understanding of what a Scutineer does, I do not have the in depth technical knowledge an MSA registered Scrut does ( Have you met Dallas Smith?...he has forgotton in the last month what I or indeed most Clerks know in a lifetime) they are trained and have a complete structure that is licenced. A Clerk of the course cannot do that job as well as the job he or she is doing in Race Control. Whilst a lot of people think we sit and drink tea all day and not doing alot, take an incident happening out on track while another car is now being checked over by the Clerk of the course because we havent got a scutineer....That Clerk should be in Race control or at the scene....he is in scutineering...and a life may be at stake...thats not an option

Timekeepers are also licenced and whilst I take on board your example re the teenager I cannot comment because I dont know what system you use in that type of event. What I do know is that there is equipment that comes with the timekeepers and also expertese. A good time keeper will tell you if a car has not been in the pitlane long enough for his/her pitstop (If there is a time limit on it) So say we do away with them....who is going to keep the logs of the times? (surely they will become in effect...the timekeepers) who is going to sort out the dispute when Car A and Car B crossed the line neck and neck, no one was watching, no timekeepers were there just the loan teenager who at the time, was desperate to relieve himself and was actually being asked by another Kart driver about the previous race.

Im not deliberatly making this up for my benefit, but, as a good friend and fellow clerk states on his strap line on here "expect the unexpected" and its true.

Its interesting because I was at the GT meeting at Brands this weekend and for a certain race they had a timekeeping system which , unlike the ones im used to, knew exactly at any time where a car was on the circuit. The monitor looked like something from Air Traffic Control, a marvelous system that would cut down the amount of timekeepers surely...yes, but it comes at a cost, which you the driver pay to be in the series...annually, so what you gain on the roundabout, you lose on the swings....and...if it goes down, for what ever reason....you as a driver, when spending that sort of money on a car preparing it etc...is not going to want to hear "sorry...system went down so...erm...we dont know where you came"

I agree that the system needs changing and as anyone will tell you who knows me I am not the sort of person who says "we have always done it that way so thats why we do it"...but, seriously, you have to know the whole picture before you start changing systems because otherwise you tend to find that you have forgotton something you didnt know about ...if you get what I mean.