Unfulfilled talents - those who never achieved potential?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ensign14

As you say, he had a dodgy F3k season where he was beaten by Irvine.

I know stats are misleading, but had Lehto been a top-drawer talent he would have destroyed those team mates. He did not. Certainly he did not show the form he had in F3.

But i'm pretty sure the standout performances of those teams in the years he drove for them were by him if you know what I mean; like the Imola 91, Spa 92, early season '93 stuff when for a while it looked like he and Sauber might even challenge for wins until the others caught up. Some of his F1 teammates pre '94 may have statistically come out better but Lehto usually was the quicker driver, and none of them were rubbish.

By the way, sorry ensign, I completely butchered your post when I tried to quote it. Will have to see if I can restore it!!!!

[ensign14]

Well, the upshot was that he was pretty much on a par with Pirro and a little behind Martini, I think. And had a LOT more experience than Wendlinger but Karl kept up with him fairly easily. I think Lehto achieved his potential - point-scorer and no more. Not race-winning calibre based on his F1 performances. Which as I say was disappointing, he looked the wasp's nipples in F3.

[Marshal]

Anyone else remember Bertrand Fabi. Blinding fast Canadian in FF2000, was killed at Goodwood as I recall testing for WSR in an F3 car - would have competed against Tommy Byrne that year I think, that would have been interesting.

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Anyone else remember Bertrand Fabi. Blinding fast Canadian in FF2000, was killed at Goodwood as I recall testing for WSR in an F3 car - would have competed against Tommy Byrne that year I think, that would have been interesting.

Marshal, Bert Fabi was killed early in '86, Tommy B was winning in F3 in '82, then less convincing in 83 and 84. By 86 he was in the US

[davyboy]

You'll find an interesting thread on Bertrand Fabi here in the tributes section with some contributions from his brother Ray.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65141

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Well, the upshot was that he was pretty much on a par with Pirro and a little behind Martini, I think. And had a LOT more experience than Wendlinger but Karl kept up with him fairly easily. I think Lehto achieved his potential - point-scorer and no more. Not race-winning calibre based on his F1 performances. Which as I say was disappointing, he looked the wasp's nipples in F3.

Hmmmm, ok respect your points man!!

But i'm positive his neck breaking crash stopped what would likely have been a good couple or 3 years at Benetton.

Interestingly Karl and Piero weren't bad pedallers, Wendy's F1 career was cut short by his accident I think it's fair to say (he never fully recovered quickly enough in '94, as I believe JJ didn't either) and Martini went from potential star in the Minardi in 89/90 to a journeyman in the Dallara's.

I think he would have done a similar job to someone like Berger or Alesi given the chance?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Interestingly Karl and Piero weren't bad pedallers, Wendy's F1 career was cut short by his accident I think it's fair to say (he never fully recovered quickly enough in '94, as I believe JJ didn't either)

Wendingler has been stunning at times in International GT racing and you've got to think what might have been there. People reckoned he was possibly better than Schumacher... hard to judge as their careers went completely different directions... but still.

[Angus Theape]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Wendingler has been stunning at times in International GT racing and you've got to think what might have been there. People reckoned he was possibly better than Schumacher... hard to judge as their careers went completely different directions... but still.

Based on their time at the Mercedes sports car team, were not both Wendlinger and HH Frentsen both rated higher than Schumacher. Bit different when it got to F1 though.

[chunterer]

But it wasn't just that Schu was better when they got to F1 though was it?

That also had something to do with:

A/ momentum (Jordan - Benetton??) and
B/ he was Bernie's and Merc's/ADAC's golden boy

Neither of the other two got instant breaks when they entered F1, circustances were totally different.

I reckon Frentzen's debut was more impressive than Schu's because the Sauber in '94 was arguably infierior compared to the top line cars than Schu's Benetton was in '91?

(Rubs hands together in anticipation of stirred feelings)

[Graz]

Schumacher was the better all round package though. Frentzen was very fragile mentally for instance. Wendlinger probably wasn't in F1 long enough to judge but he always impressed me in the March Ilmor. In terms of outright speed over one lap, maybe Frentzen & Wendlinger stood out more in the Merc Gp C car. Even in F1, Schu wasn't the out and out quickest over one lap but he was able to stick in consistently quick lap after quick lap in all conditions.

[davyboy]

I agree that Schumacher was mentally stronger than Frentzen... taking his girlfriend tells you all you wanna know there. Mental strength matters more in F1 than elsewhere. Wendlinger we'll never know.

[Saucy]

I agree with your list of those who lets say didnt fulfill their potential but what about Gilles Villeneuve? He had bags of talent and came so close once (missed by 4 points) to a World Championship in his very short career and sadly left us in 1982.
Also Senna? Although he won three World Championships he had the potental to possibly match Fangio or pass that record before Schumacher. I understand that was one of his dreams along with a Ferrari drive.

[chunterer]

Saucy you are right in what you say, Ayrton certainly would've won more titles but we've covered this idea before in the thread with Mansell for example.

Anyone who went to the top and achieved something, certainly those who won titles probably don't count on the 'could've achieved their potential' front because by and large they did?

The essence of this thread has by and large always been about drivers that were definitely very talented but for some reason or other never really got the opportunity to use it or make the most of it.

Some of the names listed never even got as far as F1......

[Graz]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I won't spoil it for you, but if you read the book you'll be asking yourself how he got as far as he did !

Just finished reading this - after his performances in FF1600, 2000 and F3, how in the name of God did he not get proper F1 drive?

Ron Dennis comes across as the stone cold robotic snob I have always thought him to be - he was even like this as a younger man back then it seems!! Re the advice Byrne sought on taking the Theodore drive, the constant 'We at McLaren..' that Denis prefaced seemingly every sentance with..up his own backside...he may as well have been saying 'We' in the Royal context. Surely Byrne would have been a better proposition than John Watson at the time?

I would like to hear the other side of the story from people who knew or came into contact with Byrne.

I was too young to remember Byrne racing at this stage of his career but going on this book and with the caveat that it's from Byrne's take only, was there ever a bigger waste of talent? People rave about Senna in the junior formulae but Byrne was at least as impressive. I'm actually kind of annoyed!!

[Graz]

Oh, by the way, just about to start Flat Out, Flat Broke' by Perry McCarthy. Looking forward to that.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Graz

Just finished reading this - after his performances in FF1600, 2000 and F3, how in the name of God did he not get proper F1 drive?

Ron Dennis comes across as the stone cold robotic snob I have always thought him to be - he was even like this as a younger man back then it seems!! Re the advice Byrne sought on taking the Theodore drive, the constant 'We at McLaren..' that Denis prefaced seemingly every sentance with..up his own backside...he may as well have been saying 'We' in the Royal context. Surely Byrne would have been a better proposition than John Watson at the time?

I would like to hear the other side of the story from people who knew or came into contact with Byrne.

I was too young to remember Byrne racing at this stage of his career but going on this book and with the caveat that it's from Byrne's take only, was there ever a bigger waste of talent? People rave about Senna in the junior formulae but Byrne was at least as impressive. I'm actually kind of annoyed!!

I too would love to hear an impartial account of what went on there. To be honest, I'm leaning more to thinking that Tommy blew it for himself rather than Ron snuffed him out. While his talent on track was without question, his demeanour and decision making process off track seemed to override it to such a negative extent that he ended up squandering important opportunities. The McLaren situation was probably one of those.

[chunterer]

When I was little I remember there was quite a fuss about how good Byrne was supposed to be when he won the F3 title and then he signed for Theodore.........

I guess at that time there was quite a strong crop of drivers, like one of those eras that happens every 10 years or so it seems.

Senna, Brundle, Byrne, Berger, Mansilla, Scott (well I thought he was pretty ace), Ravaglia and numerous others that no doubt people will want to add to that list!!!

Bit like we also had during my time at least in the mid 80's ('Rat Pack', Alesi etc)the late 80's (Schuey, Hakkinen, Frentzen, McNish, Salo, Aiello etc) and then again in the late 90's (Montoya, Heidfeld, Rodriguez, Watt, Zonta, Sarrazin etc, etc)

My point is that an excellent driver in one of these periods might struggle to get through to the top but a merely very good driver in years when the competition maybe isn't as strong has a better chance.

There are probably a few examples.....

[Graz]

Originally Posted by chunterer

When I was little I remember there was quite a fuss about how good Byrne was supposed to be when he won the F3 title and then he signed for Theodore.........

I guess at that time there was quite a strong crop of drivers, like one of those eras that happens every 10 years or so it seems.

Senna, Brundle, Byrne, Berger, Mansilla, Scott (well I thought he was pretty ace), Ravaglia and numerous others that no doubt people will want to add to that list!!!

Bit like we also had during my time at least in the mid 80's ('Rat Pack', Alesi etc)the late 80's (Schuey, Hakkinen, Frentzen, McNish, Salo, Aiello etc) and then again in the late 90's (Montoya, Heidfeld, Rodriguez, Watt, Zonta, Sarrazin etc, etc)

My point is that an excellent driver in one of these periods might struggle to get through to the top but a merely very good driver in years when the competition maybe isn't as strong has a better chance.

There are probably a few examples.....

On paper though, Byrne should have been guaranteed success by winning eveything he did when he did. I would love to hear the whole story.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Graz

On paper though, Byrne should have been guaranteed success by winning eveything he did when he did. I would love to hear the whole story.

Agreed. In comparison to his peers, his results on the way up were on another level altogether. From the book, it looks like his personality got in the way of his career.

[Clive Brown]

Forgive me if the following names have come up before , but Mike Walker ( F3 Ensign , F5000 with Alan McKechnie ) , Alan Rollinson ( also McKechnie F5000 ) , and Walsall Al's cousin Steve Thompson come to mind ....

Unfortunately , we live in times far too litigious to allow this , but arguably , an even more interesting counterpart to this thread would be a list of drivers who got far further than their respective talents merited !

[The SpeCTator]

I have to confess i have not scanned pages 1-21 but one driver who had talent to spare but chose to stick with a no hope "works" team in the BTCC was Patrick Watts. He drove the wheels off and smashed the wings off the hopeless Peugeot ( who never won a BTCC event if i recall correctly)but achieved only to p*ss off all those around him!
If he had got in to a BMW or Vauhall the rest would be history. Cant wait to see him in the Mustang in 2009

[GORDON STREETER]

http://www.slaithwaitemc.co.uk/profi...atrick%20Watts
I have known Patrick for a number of years as we were on the same bill in the old ICS days.

[Clive Brown]

I've trawled my memory for those who for whatever reason never quite achieved what their ability suggested they might , and here's my list .

Of those who actually succeeded in at least gaining a toehold on the dungheap , Jonathan Palmer and Martin Donnelly spring to mind , and what about Juan Pablo Montoya ? Screwed like Tommy Byrne and David Coulthard were , and by the same person . Others of the Irish contingent include Kenny Acheson , and for a real blast from the past , Damien 'Mad Dog' Magee . Turning to the sweaties , although David Leslie had a good career , I wonder if he couldn't have gone further , and I think Anthony Reid might have been rather better than the BTCC . Thinking of BTCC drivers , had he not been so resolutely his own man , the perennially under-funded Dennis Leech worked wonders in cars that had no right to be running in the positions to which he got them . From NASCAR , Tim Richmond , who I know has been mentioned before , and more recently , Casey Atwood - still only 28 even now . I bet if he was called Casey Earnhardt he'd have a drive ....

[Angus Theape]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

I've trawled my memory for those who for whatever reason never quite achieved what their ability suggested they might , and here's my list .

Of those who actually succeeded in at least gaining a toehold on the dungheap , Jonathan Palmer and Martin Donnelly spring to mind , and what about Juan Pablo Montoya ? Screwed like Tommy Byrne and David Coulthard were , and by the same person . ....

I always considered that JPM screwed himself and DC much the same. If either did not reach their unfullfilled talent, it was surely no ones fault but their own.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Angus Theape

I always considered that JPM screwed himself and DC much the same. If either did not reach their unfullfilled talent, it was surely no ones fault but their own.

I think Coulthard did as well as he was ever going to do and was very lucky to get as long as he did in a good car. JPM was and is a wasted talent. He was like a racer from a different era and needed to be managed in a certain way. He found modern F1 too stifling and corporate and he couldn't have been in a worse team if he disliked this aspect. He would have thrived under the likes of Briatore at Renault or if he was part of Red Bull racing I think.