Unfulfilled talents - those who never achieved potential?

[BSchneiderFan]

In terms of not reaching the levels of success deserved by talent, I'd have to nominate Bernd Schneider. One of the quickest drivers in the world, and sure, he's won DTM titles aplenty and the GT title in 1997, but he should have had a crack at F1 with more than a Zakspeed. In a decent car, I think he'd have been as good as anyone.

I agree wholeheartedly with JJ Lehto (one of the best wet-weather drivers ever), Andy Wallace (though the moustache was dodgy) and Jan Lammers (absurdly quick, even well into his forties).

Would also have to nominate Bob Wollek and Dan Gurney. Bob at least deserved to win Le Mans, and Gurney was, remember, the only driver Clark really feared. Shame he picked his teams so badly in the '60s...

[Mike.ca]

&nbsp Others have mentioned Greg Moore...such a tragic loss to the sport. I'd like to add a little more Canadian content.
&nbsp Peter Ryan had the talent to be Canada's first WDC. Frank Gardiner, who raced against all of the best drivers of the '60s, reckoned him to be one of the fastest men he'd ever seen. Ryan was killed in a Lotus FJ at Reims in 1962.
&nbsp It's hard to believe that Paul Tracy has just the one CART title. He's been either the fastest, or one of the two or three fastest, drivers in every year since he broke into the series. What I really regret is that he never got to do F1. In 1993, he was as fast, often faster, than the reigning WDC on CART's road courses. It's a shame Benetton didn't sign him for '95.
&nbsp Scott Goodyear was a decent road racer and a brilliant oval racer who should have had a CART drive much sooner than he did. When he did get to CART, he never had a full season with a first rate team. I've read that, if Tracy had gone to Benetton, Goodyear would have had his seat at N-H. I think he'd have made the best of the opportunity.
&nbsp Canadian content requirements fulfilled, I'd like to add a word or two about that"lost generation" of British drivers: Roger Williamson, Tom Pryce and Tony Brise. The latter two were great heroes of mine. They would have had to change teams to achieve their full potential - which was immense. Another British talent of that era, whom people often forget, was Colin Vandervell. An excellent driver in the lower formulae, he retired for family reasons before reaching F1.

[chunterer]

Mike, thanks for that input. Greg was a potential world champ, clearly the best Cannuck for a long, long time. I was horrified by the accident, which was live on Eurosport. I think he'd have been multiple cart titlist at Penske and been in F1 by now had he lived.

Other Canadians i'm aware of, yes Tracy definite candidate - very good driver indeed. Young guy called Jean Francois Veilluex seemed quick in British junior single seaters, but ran out of money.

Going back to 80's a French Canadian guy named Benoit Vignault? - protege of Richard Spenard i think did FF2000 winter series in '85, with no experience of british tracks. not sure how young he was at time but i reckoned he had serious ability, wonder what happened to him?
Do you remember him at all?

[BSchneiderFan]

Why didn't Tracy go to Benetton in '95? His decision or theirs?

[chunterer]

Their's i believe. Think he wasn't far off Schuey's pace and i also think Ford had something to do with organising it. Then JV pi***d on his party a little bit by signing for Williams

[Mike.ca]

&nbsp The Villeneuve signing came a year later, so it had no effect on Tracy's deal with Benetton. If anything, JV made it easier for CART drivers to be taken seriously in F1.
&nbsp Tracy did well in his Benetton tests. If Briatore had simply offered him a ride for the 1995 season he probably would have taken it. Instead, Briatore wanted him to sign a contract that would have tied him to Benetton for several years (i.e. forbidden him from talking to any other teams) but without any guarantee of a Benetton drive - ever. Tracy's father, who was handling the negotiations, told him to get stuffed. I guess Briatore thought that he'd have Schumacher forever. Benetton had some good drivers after Michael left, but I don't know if any of them had the sheer speed, aggression and determination that Tracy had. Yes, he's made some bonehead moves - usually in frustration when his car wasn't as quick as he wanted. I think Paul Tracy would have been a winner in F1. If he'd gone over in '95, he might well have beaten Jacques to the title.

[henk4]

I just noted that some NASCAR drivers were mentioned, which I find hard to believe, assuming that these guys are only trained in left hand cornering and being a racing driver requires a bit more. However they also seem to be doing also a limited amount of real trackracing, whereby Jeff Gordon stands out. Might be good to know what he can do on tracks like Spa and Suzuka.

[chunterer]

Yes Henk, but no offence, Gordon has made it in his sphere, he's not unfulfilled potential in my book. Good thoughts otherwise though!

[cybersdorf]

NASCAR has some very good drivers who rarely get to (or want to) venture out of their own world. They have a very tight schedule, too. The mentality behind the series as such may not be the most "openminded" but I think the drivers are not the ones to blame for this.

If I may chime in here - as an enduro fan, I would have loved to see Dale Earnhardt, sr. have a go at Le Mans. Not that the Man in Black was an undiscovered talent, but he did quite well in the Corvette at Daytona, his last race before the fateful 500. He may not have been a natural road racer but I liked the way he got his head down and worked on his road racing, instead of just being a primadonna and not taking advice from anybody. Anyway, someone up in Race Control decided against it.

Which brings me to another Corvette driver - Oliver Gavin who has also been mentioned here. While it is true that he did not make it to the Max & Bernie Show, he is doing fine in GT racing, with two Le Mans class wins. His career is far from over.

As for Jan Magnussen, sportscar hero, and 50% of the infamous "Mags & Brabs" tag team of the ALMS, and his attempt at F1 - what happened there? For someone who is a bona fide Champion to fail so dismally... - ouch.

[henk4]

NASCAR to me has little to do with driver quality. I just saw a review of this year in the German magazine Auto Motor und Sport (AMS)and I could not believe that the guy who had 8 victories (and 11 polo positions) came only 6th in the final standings. The overall winner managed just one victory (and no pole position). (Compare this to the Schumacher/Raikonen showdown about number of wins). The second guy in terms of number of wins (4) came 11th overall.

This to me makes it a very unrealistic type of motorsport. It appears to be dominated by one financially heavy family named France. (And I thought that after the Iraq war anything related to France was banned in the USA!!) AMS also made the remark that it's for a "Republican oriented audience, which is particularly hateful vs Jeff Gordon, because he sometimes speaks out.

Anyway, Cybersdorf, for me the Man in Black in Johnny Cash and the locomotion was a product of Little Eve, way back in the sixties.

[mcurtis26]

I'd add Martin O'Connell to the list after his giant killing performances in the 90s in F3 Class B, just a pity he never had the cash to match his talent, he seemed very hand in his handful of sportscar outings as well.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by henk4
Anyway, Cybersdorf, for me the Man in Black in Johnny Cash and the locomotion was a product of Little Eve, way back in the sixties.

Anyway, Henk, we can't all be right all the time.

[henk4]

we can always try, can't we? (wink,wink)

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by henk4
NASCAR to me has little to do with driver quality. I just saw a review of this year in the German magazine Auto Motor und Sport (AMS)and I could not believe that the guy who had 8 victories (and 11 polo positions) came only 6th in the final standings. The overall winner managed just one victory (and no pole position). (Compare this to the Schumacher/Raikonen showdown about number of wins). The second guy in terms of number of wins (4) came 11th overall.

This to me makes it a very unrealistic type of motorsport. It appears to be dominated by one financially heavy family named France. (And I thought that after the Iraq war anything related to France was banned in the USA!!) AMS also made the remark that it's for a "Republican oriented audience, which is particularly hateful vs Jeff Gordon, because he sometimes speaks out.

Anyway, Cybersdorf, for me the Man in Black in Johnny Cash and the locomotion was a product of Little Eve, way back in the sixties.

Henk:
If you are old enough to remember what the Locomotion was, then you are also old enough to remember the same " they can only turn left" attitude when the USAC cars hit the road courses. Many of the drivers were very, very good at road racing.
Back to NASCAR, Bobby Allison was an excellant racer in anything with wheels, which is partly due to his attitude that he would race, anything on wheels.
I think a better test of skill would be see how good some of the road racers are in a wing-less sprint car on a one half-mile track.
And yes I would like to see how anyone would do in sprint car running the opposite direction for once, that would be interesting.
Bob

[Aarrgh8]

Yikes, Bob, that would be interesting, but you'd have to start with a new Sprintcar. There'd be more to it than swapping rear wheels. Come to think of it, you couldn't do that because the wheelnuts are threaded the wrong way to run in the opposite direction. Still, assuming you could set a Sprinter up to turn right, (No, that's not correct, because Sprinters turn right to go left.) make that a 'clockwise direction, it would be interesting.

I remember seeing footage from a camera mounted on the roll-cage of a Champcar with one of the Unsers at the wheel doing Pike's Peak. Every bit as good at turning right and left as anything else you care to name - spectacular, too.

[Hazza]

a couple of things:
Didn't Irvine finish 2nd at Le Mans?

There are some funny stories about Dan Gurney @ Riverside at Nascar where after 5 years of coming in, and "kickin' ass" they dissalowed his (pole) qualifying time, and then when he managed to get a Lap-up on the field (I don't know how, he said the car he was driving was a "barn door") they stopped him on the track and let everyone else catch up...

I personaly belliev that Gilles Villneuve didn't achieve his full potential, I mean, with him at the wheel wouldn't he have nabbed the '82 and '83 titles?

[henk4]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe

I think a better test of skill would be see how good some of the road racers are in a wing-less sprint car on a one half-mile track.
And yes I would like to see how anyone would do in sprint car running the opposite direction for once, that would be interesting.
Bob

Hi Bob, no idea what your suggestion means, what is a "sprint" car, is that a sort of dragster? (As you may have guessed I live in Europe) My only point of bringing forward the NASCAR issue was that some people thought there were drivers there that did not fulfill their promise as a talented racing driver. I am just wondering whether NASCAR is the right series to develop race driving talents.

As to next post, the stories about Dan Gurney I don't remember, but he was/is an excellent road racer, giving two marques their one and only F1 victory. He certainly qualifies for this forum as not having been able to fully develop his talents. If they had to slow him down in a NASCAR race could that have been because he made a mockery of the rest of his collegues there?

[Aarrgh8]

Henk,
Australia calling. I don't know what system of measurement you use in your country, but a Sprintcar (there are many categories, but the type we're talking about) is an 800hp, 1200lb racecar that races on dirt ovals, varying from 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile circumference. The tracks vary in shape, configuration, type of surface, etc. The frame is a chrome-moly frame with an integral rollcage, and the engine is an alloy V8 (usually based on the small-block Chev) of 410 cid, sometimes smaller, but not less than 360cid - which is about 6 litres. Engines rev to around 8,400rpm, speeds reached can get around 230kph, which is plenty when racing on a small dirt oval with another 17 or so lunatics. Large wings are employed in the leading categories to give these things some downforce and traction. There are categories which race 'wingless', which makes for spectacular racing, but at lower speeds. Needless to say, Sprintcar racing doesn't have much time for NASCAR, but there are drivers who have made the switch to the really big dollars. Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon amongst them.

Sprintcar racing is my favourite form of motorsport. The fallacy about only turning left is just that. These cars and drivers really race. I've been involved in motorsport for forty years - rallying, driving in a few categories, crewing in F1, numerous other ventures, and owning a Sprintcar team. These things beat 'em all. It's grass-roots racing, but big dollars and great action. Jackie Stewart called them 'Motor racing's last frontier.' Says it all, really.

[henk4]

Thanks Aaaaaaaaetc for this detailed answer to my question.

No we absolutely don't have that in Europe (at least as far as I know), we do have motorcycle dirt track racing (speedway), which comes closest to what you are describing, and some grass track racing using old sedans, but those are basically attempts to inflict as much damage to each other as possible.

One of the reasons why we don't have it could be cultural, in the sense that Europe is very much completely covered with tarmac roads, and there is no need to show how fast you can go on dirt tracks. From the description of the cars I can only conclude that the abundance of V8 engines overthere (and the USA) could also be a stimulating factor.

As far as driver talents is concerned, letting loose these sorts of power on a dirt track will definitely require some fine car handling techniques. I assume that traction control etc are still banned here.

[Aarrgh8]

Oh, yes. Traction control. It's permeated even this category. Let's hope that good control of rules and good scrutineering prevents such great racing succumbing to technology.

[henk4]

Originally posted by Aarrgh8
Oh, yes. Traction control. It's permeated even this category. Let's hope that good control of rules and good scrutineering prevents such great racing succumbing to technology.

Interesting to note where technology stops being acceptable. Remember that brakes are also a part of the technolgical development, and we don't want to ban them do we

[Bob Riebe]

Henk:
An addendum, there is a sprint car track over here called Winchester speedway. It is one-half mile, around the inside not outside of the track.
It is the steepest banked track in the U.S., I believe thirty degrees but do not quote me, the track record there is 13.992 which is just under 129 mph(I figured this in my head so I may be off)
There are some high-speed dirt tracks where cars qualify in the 120 mph range. Sprint cars look like small versions of Indy cars from the fifties, or used to before the round look went out for driver protection and aerodynamics. Now they look more square and bulky.
Bob

[chunterer]

Gentlemen, sorry to risk ruining your debate about ovals and direction, but please could we keep this thread to drivers and what they could/could not have achieved?

Someone mentioned Tom Kristensen's name on another thread, This guy is bit like Lehto in that although the Dane never got to F1 like JJ did, he's always fast and on the limit and spectacular too. He is probably one of THE best drivers outside of F1 at the minute but alas he's prob a bit too old to get an F1 chance now. I know he's won Le Mans, but my thread is really about not making it at the pinnacle - F1. We've all managed to name some great drivers who for whatever reason didn't do themselves justice there. Tommy is clearly one that could've given the chance.

Could Zonta be another one? Still think he's got something to offer given the chance. Also glad McNish is on verge of a Jordan drive. The Scot is the seminal example of unfulifilled talent of all time (if you're British, that is

Keep em coming people!!

[Stephen Green]

I would add Oliver Gavin to the list. His F1 carrear blighted by Simtec (I think) after good seasons in lower formulae. I also believe that being over 6 ft tall didn't do him too many favours

Another driver, sadly no longer with us, but who was full of talent and destined to go far was Paul Warwick. I am sure I read that Derek part funded Pauls last season in F3000 when he had the fateful accident. Several people have told me that Derek felt Paul was a more complete driver than himself. I watched Paul on many occasions in F3000 at Brands Hatch and he was so smooth. He never 'looked fast' but always came out with pole position or close to it.

[Aysedasi]

Agreed. I watched Paul many times in his early career. So sad he was snatched away before his true potential could be realised.

Also, nice to see chunterer talk in those terms about Kristensen and McNish. I'd love to see Tom in a decent F1 car - I think he would surprise a lot of blinkered non-trainspotters......