Historic Tyres & Technical Regs

[terence]

Isnt it about time the Organizers of these Historic meetings Spa-etc started to realise that there are many Car Owners /Drivers do not like the current trend of filling up grid slots with cars that are out of period with the rest of the grid?. The Spa Six Hours,why do they need the Eau Rouge Trophy, surely the grid would be filled to capacity withproper cars of period?.There were more than enough on the reserves list.Gentleman drivers and Top Hat seem to have a secret formula, it provides excellent racing/spectable for all ,the policing of fhe cars in both series cannot be any more difficult than any other,so why allow these hybrids to compete, they are not needed.Im open to any ideas/thoughts that anyone has.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Isnt it about time the Organizers of these Historic meetings Spa-etc started to realise that there are many Car Owners /Drivers do not like the current trend of filling up grid slots with cars that are out of period with the rest of the grid?.

The problem comes with a fear of lack of entries. when you and I were talking the other weekend we noted that a few of the regulars were absent. As you said there had been the Eiffel Classic the week before and some people can't afford the time or the cash to do two major events in ten days.

Originally Posted by terence bower

The Spa Six Hours,why do they need the Eau Rouge Trophy, surely the grid would be filled to capacity withproper cars of period?.There were more than enough on the reserves list.

Going back to my point above we may be looking at a need to coordinate the calendar so that entries are assured (barring accidents).

Originally Posted by terence bower

Gentleman drivers and Top Hat seem to have a secret formula, it provides excellent racing/spectable for all ,the policing of fhe cars in both series cannot be any more difficult than any other,so why allow these hybrids to compete, they are not needed. Im open to any ideas/thoughts that anyone has.

I think there is also another issue Terry,

The mix of cars in the Allcomers races is too extreme and unless there is a concerted effort to separate the sports prototypes from the sports/saloon cars these races will also lose entries.

That said we have to remember that apart from "Oldies but Goldies and the actual Top Hat classes the others "Sebring Salute" and "Groovy Baby" are based on regs defiened by other clubs thus it is difficult to police. Gentleman Drivers and U2TC are based upon App k so again they are easy to police.

I do think that all races should limit entries to cars more than 25 years old. In my case I was removed from the race by an "S" registered Lotus Elise that had been wrongly entered as a Lotus Elite!

So to tyres.

I firmly believe that whilst we should not run slicks or indeed any kind of super sticky tyre there is a good case for running tyres of a similar profile and adhesion to those that the cars ran in period. Let's face it tyre manufacture is more advanced now so any tyre is likely to be better than they ran in period.

Thus as with Top Hat which specifies Dunlop L or M section for pre 1967 and Groups 2 and 5 cars and Dunlop D84 for post 1967 Group 1 cars, I think this should be applied across the board at all levels.

So, to summarise:

All major international events should be coordinated to allow a more "relaxed" calendar and thus assure the organisers of the entries.

Cars/models of less than 25 years old should not be allowed in a "Historic/Classic" event.

Tyre regs should be uniform across the entire spectrum and race organisers should enforce the regs either by excluding those that don't comply or by disqualifying cars from races.

And finally here's an idea to stop those "questionable" V8 engine capacities. Only allow entries for cars of maximum six cylinders and maximum capacity 4 litres.

[Al Weyman]

Why outlaw the most popular cars on the grid, the V8 powered ones. Capacity is easy enough to check on most American V8's although I am more a chevy man but put it this way if a small block chevy engine has a proper production block and not an aftermarket one then the only way to increase the capacity is by stroking and would be reasonably easy to check so the answer surely to the 'questionable' V8 engines is to insist that production blocks are used and they are very easy identifiable. I have been having the same argument in a championship I was running my black car in but as no one seems to be bothered I am simply not going out with them anymore till someone sits up and does something about the cheats as I am banging my head against the wall and achieving nothing.

[Peter Mallett]

Production blocks are specified Al. Trouble is a Ford Motorsport block is considered "production".

[Al Weyman]

I guess a Chevy Bowtie block is concidered the same aand thats where you have your problem as the later ones are siameased and will over bore a quarter of an inch and thats how you arrive at the 6.2 litre short stroke configuration or put a 3.75 crank in and you get 6.6. So simply ban the siamesed blocks.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The problem comes with a fear of lack of entries. when you and I were talking the other weekend we noted that a few of the regulars were absent. As you said there had been the Eiffel Classic the week before and some people can't afford the time or the cash to do two major events in ten days.



Going back to my point above we may be looking at a need to coordinate the calendar so that entries are assured (barring accidents).



I think there is also another issue Terry,

The mix of cars in the Allcomers races is too extreme and unless there is a concerted effort to separate the sports prototypes from the sports/saloon cars these races will also lose entries.

That said we have to remember that apart from "Oldies but Goldies and the actual Top Hat classes the others "Sebring Salute" and "Groovy Baby" are based on regs defiened by other clubs thus it is difficult to police. Gentleman Drivers and U2TC are based upon App k so again they are easy to police.

I do think that all races should limit entries to cars more than 25 years old. In my case I was removed from the race by an "S" registered Lotus Elise that had been wrongly entered as a Lotus Elite!

So to tyres.

I firmly believe that whilst we should not run slicks or indeed any kind of super sticky tyre there is a good case for running tyres of a similar profile and adhesion to those that the cars ran in period. Let's face it tyre manufacture is more advanced now so any tyre is likely to be better than they ran in period.

Thus as with Top Hat which specifies Dunlop L or M section for pre 1967 and Groups 2 and 5 cars and Dunlop D84 for post 1967 Group 1 cars, I think this should be applied across the board at all levels.

So, to summarise:

All major international events should be coordinated to allow a more "relaxed" calendar and thus assure the organisers of the entries.

Cars/models of less than 25 years old should not be allowed in a "Historic/Classic" event.

Tyre regs should be uniform across the entire spectrum and race organisers should enforce the regs either by excluding those that don't comply or by disqualifying cars from races.

And finally here's an idea to stop those "questionable" V8 engine capacities. Only allow entries for cars of maximum six cylinders and maximum capacity 4 litres.

Ahh There you are, absulutly agree. One or two points though,1] I think that a lot of the Regulars had a break purely because they were of to Dijon for this weekends meet.There are some people who will not do Spa because of thespeed differential,but all in all I dont think that they would make much of a dent in the numbers!I do know that every grid slot could have been taken however.2]The Lotus should indeed have been an Elite-unfortunatly it was not ready for the owner to bring out![best not risk losing 1 entrie fee.!!!!!]

[terence]

Further to my other comments,If Top Hat specifie Dunlop Histo,s whatever the weather,why do they not witness big accidents when it rains, maybe something to do with the drivers learning to use the tyres to thier best .We just need to get the tyre thing sorted,as in any one make series, [IF YOU AINT GOT THE RIGHT TYRES,YOU AINT GONNA RACE.]You know my feelings on V8s,if people want to use a v8 engined car,then that engine must be totally legal,as in the sixtys,a properly driven lotus cortina should stay/get past a v8 engined car,if its a legal v8 that is. As far as the four litre thing goes, now that could really work,it would make amuch more interesting grid and hopefully encorage Bristol Engined A,Cs etc::

[Al Weyman]

The Dunlops are the same as we use in the pre 74 Historics and they are remarkably good in the wet which is just as well as I only have 5 :-).

Totally agree about the V8's and it has always got right up my nose to see the 6.2 plus Chevys when they clearly were (a) never made at that size and (b) the size is not achievable with out use of an aftermarket or later generation Bowtie block and/or a long stroke special crank and could not be achieved in period. never understood how it was allowed to happen. i mean just how much advantage do you want for crying out loud, I thought the idea was to 'race' not anilate! Oh and I managed to beat (just) the very good and well driven Lotus Cortina of Roger Stanford at Pembrey last year in fact I retook him on the last lap and it was a very good race and believe me the engine in my yellow car is very legal and very tame so again you are quite correct.

[esper]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Further to my other comments,If Top Hat specifie Dunlop Histo,s whatever the weather,why do they not witness big accidents when it rains, maybe something to do with the drivers learning to use the tyres to thier best .We just need to get the tyre thing sorted,as in any one make series, [IF YOU AINT GOT THE RIGHT TYRES,YOU AINT GONNA RACE.]You know my feelings on V8s,if people want to use a v8 engined car,then that engine must be totally legal,as in the sixtys,a properly driven lotus cortina should stay/get past a v8 engined car,if its a legal v8 that is. As far as the four litre thing goes, now that could really work,it would make amuch more interesting grid and hopefully encorage Bristol Engined A,Cs etc::

just yesterday i was watching a nice movie on t60ies racing , you can find it on metalmeet.com, I saw a race at Brands and saw Cortinas all over the place but Minis as well in front as way back on Falcons. but I also saw Anglias in front of Cortinas. these days we are to much puting cars in catagories, was this so strict in the sixties?

[esper]

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=121 this ist it i don't know if you can look at it copyrightwise but have a look!!!!

[terence]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

The Dunlops are the same as we use in the pre 74 Historics and they are remarkably good in the wet which is just as well as I only have 5 :-).

Totally agree about the V8's and it has always got right up my nose to see the 6.2 plus Chevys when they clearly were (a) never made at that size and (b) the size is not achievable with out use of an aftermarket or later generation Bowtie block and/or a long stroke special crank and could not be achieved in period. never understood how it was allowed to happen. i mean just how much advantage do you want for crying out loud, I thought the idea was to 'race' not anilate! Oh and I managed to beat (just) the very good and well driven Lotus Cortina of Roger Stanford at Pembrey last year in fact I retook him on the last lap and it was a very good race and believe me the engine in my yellow car is very legal and very tame so again you are quite correct.

I rest my case Al, Ive always been under the impression that Historic Racing was to try to some extent to recreate the 50s/60s etc,how often do we have the privalige of seeing a Cortina on three wheels, aCcamaro doing its best to keep it behind etc,etc.If we could provide this kind of spectacle, Im sure we would start to see an increase in spectator attendance numbers, thats got to be good news for all concerned.Personaly, I love Dunlop Historics, wet or dry.

[terence]

Originally Posted by esper

just yesterday i was watching a nice movie on t60ies racing , you can find it on metalmeet.com, I saw a race at Brands and saw Cortinas all over the place but Minis as well in front as way back on Falcons. but I also saw Anglias in front of Cortinas. these days we are to much puting cars in catagories, was this so strict in the sixties?

Sometimes yes, it all depended on the class you were entered in ,but everone used the same Historic tyres, Indeed once upon a time they were THE tyre to have.

[Al Weyman]

Excellent video, thanks for the link, I now know what is needed to get everything back on par.

In F1 get rid of all the aerodynamic devices and run a minimum ride hieght of 4 inches.

Ditto F3.

Make Mk 1 Cortinas run mandatory V8 engines! Great stuff.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Why outlaw the most popular cars on the grid, the V8 powered ones. Capacity is easy enough to check on most American V8's although I am more a chevy man but put it this way if a small block chevy engine has a proper production block and not an aftermarket one then the only way to increase the capacity is by stroking and would be reasonably easy to check so the answer surely to the 'questionable' V8 engines is to insist that production blocks are used and they are very easy identifiable. I have been having the same argument in a championship I was running my black car in but as no one seems to be bothered I am simply not going out with them anymore till someone sits up and does something about the cheats as I am banging my head against the wall and achieving nothing.

Is this flogging a dead Mustang????or trying to get it to start!!

[terence]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Excellent video, thanks for the link, I now know what is needed to get everything back on par.

In F1 get rid of all the aerodynamic devices and run a minimum ride hieght of 4 inches.

Ditto F3.

Make Mk 1 Cortinas run mandatory V8 engines! Great stuff.

There was one such animal! Driven by Doc Merfield!!!

[terence]

Originally Posted by esper

http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=121 this ist it i don't know if you can look at it copyrightwise but have a look!!!!

Well done Esper, Thats the sort of rscing we need now.!!!!!!

[terence]

I think we should spare a thought for one of the greatest Mini racers,John Rhodes,he recently lost his sight in an accident .Such a cruel blow for a man who still loves his racing just as much as he did in the early days as seen in those films.

[Al Weyman]

Terence did you not see the Doc's Cortina on the video, also my old mate Paul Hawkins getting sent out to retrieve the bodywork of his Ferrari during the BOAC 500. Paul was based at Fortis Green Road Muswell Hill in the same garage block as the people I was working for (Roger Nathan Racing) what a character, what a loss to the world when he died at Oulton Park a short while after that film was made.

Sad about John Rhodes, same when Jim Mensley lost his sight in one eye while working on his car (or so I was told by a friend of his) and had to give up the sport he loved. Was one of those Angleboxes our very own Gerry Swish who posts here?

[terence]

I think it was, certainly a very good friend of mine was in one of the other Anglias,Terry Croker,I think also my barber was in another Anglia, I cant remember his surname ,but he had his shop in Hornchurch,I can remember him as Mick though.Problem is we,re all getting older,so now we have to get a move on!!

[esper]

now i am getting curious i was born in the year that paddy Hopkirk and Andrew Hedges cam 11th in Le Mans MGB no 39.....the number we had in Spa Francorchamps last week!!!!!
tell me about race in your years of birth. Don't tell me ERA won.......
(guys i am only joking)

[terence]

Originally Posted by esper

now i am getting curious i was born in the year that paddy Hopkirk and Andrew Hedges cam 11th in Le Mans MGB no 39.....the number we had in Spa Francorchamps last week!!!!!
tell me about race in your years of birth. Don't tell me ERA won.......
(guys i am only joking)

I cant remember, it was so long ago!

[Al Weyman]

1948 so you tell me!

[terence]

Thanks Al, you just made my day, mines 1950!!

[Peter Horsman]

Re John Rhodes. Is not the hope that he had a brain knock/injury and he may regain? Let's hope so.

[terence]

My information was quite scetchy,but yes there is apparantly hope.