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Old 15 Aug 2011, 07:55 (Ref:2939794)   #51
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JB returned at the last round at Laguna Seca.
Our friends on #10 suggested that this round was the return
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Old 15 Aug 2011, 20:01 (Ref:2940158)   #52
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Our friends on #10 suggested that this round was the return
He was at Laguna as bestfit noted. But Brno is nothing like Laguna, so maybe the track was a better fit.
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Old 17 Aug 2011, 06:30 (Ref:2941980)   #53
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I dont believe Burgess is doing anything special with the bke, the simple fact is that when he is around the team functions more easily and he has a much better structure in place to develop things and make a difference. That is wh Vale wants him around and needs him around.

Jerry himself cant design bits for the bike! He just get togetehr with Vale and finds out if the new bits work. They have been struggling with the front, it's that simple and something that Vale has always had on Honda or Yamaha.

Back in 2000 when it was obvious Criville had lost his way, Honda redesigned the NSR to suit Rossi more and he won easily on it, and Criville went backwards as he was a different rider.

Vale has sort of inherited a bike here. Fair play Stoner could ride it quicker. But he used to fall off a lot too! Rossi will not push to the point where he is falling as much, and that means he is slower. Stoner is not falling off the Honda which says it all really.

The bike is flawed, pure and simple and no amount of testing, redesign seems to change the fact that the chassis structure and design are flawed. They ought to know, they have now wasted millions on the pile of scrap!
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Old 17 Aug 2011, 08:43 (Ref:2942014)   #54
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gomick should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgomick should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgomick should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Well maybe they shouldve invested in some young buck who would push the so called piece of $hit to the limits, like Stoner did - not a bad piece of scrap that won 20 odd GP's in 4 years nonetheless... Bet Suzuki wish they could do that!
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Old 17 Aug 2011, 12:48 (Ref:2942082)   #55
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This season has been a bit of an eye-opener for me at least. I originally expected Rossi to be on form after about 4 races, then revised that to midway through the season after the poor start. I hadn't really contemplated that after throwing $, topline mechanics and arguably the best rider at the bike, they still wouldn't get results. Makes me think a lot more about all the satellite/privateer teams over the years that have struggled to stay off the bottom, and the mid-running teams that couldn't stay at the pointy end of the field regularly. Previously I'd thought their ills were nothing that any two out of the aforementioned three items couldn't solve.
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Old 17 Aug 2011, 13:31 (Ref:2942094)   #56
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same here, the fact that rossi hasnt been able to even get within a shouting distance of a win, makes me realise that ducati's problems are far deeper than a loss of form on stoners behalf which is what appeared to of happened, quite the reverse infact stoner was just riding the wheels off the thing, and was achieving some incredibly good results giving the bikes problems
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Old 17 Aug 2011, 15:01 (Ref:2942130)   #57
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bestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A very interesting interview with Rossi on the Ducati, Stoner etc.
Translated from Spanish
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Old 17 Aug 2011, 18:53 (Ref:2942231)   #58
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A very interesting interview with Rossi on the Ducati, Stoner etc.
Translated from Spanish
gave up after 3 paragraphs - indecipherable
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Old 18 Aug 2011, 07:39 (Ref:2942385)   #59
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It's also very telling, that when Stoner was at Ducati, He was given the bike and pretty much told. That's the bike deal with it. So he and his crew had to find a way to make it go fast.

Now Rossi is there Ducati are bending over backwards to make new bits, possibly even an alloy frame, I bet if Stoner had of asked for that he would have been flatly refused. It appears Ducati totally underestimated the difference the nut on top of the bike was making
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Old 18 Aug 2011, 09:21 (Ref:2942417)   #60
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It's also very telling, that when Stoner was at Ducati, He was given the bike and pretty much told. That's the bike deal with it. So he and his crew had to find a way to make it go fast.

Now Rossi is there Ducati are bending over backwards to make new bits, possibly even an alloy frame, I bet if Stoner had of asked for that he would have been flatly refused. It appears Ducati totally underestimated the difference the nut on top of the bike was making
Do you remember when Rossi was slagging off Stoner's performances on the Ducati, and Stoner said, "When he has ridden it we'll talk."

It would seem that Ducati and Rossi deserve each other!
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Old 18 Aug 2011, 15:30 (Ref:2942559)   #61
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I do find it a bit of a shame that people are gagging to put Vale down. He is simply the best rider of a generation and just because Stoner could ride a bike as well and quicker than he could apparently he is a has been!

Now, if Casey WAS told to just get on with it then that shows two things.

Firstly, he is a pure natural talent in the way that a Schwantz, Gardner or Roberts was. In that he could get on any bike that was near the pace and wring its neck to win, but he will also crash a lot. Give him a good bike and he will stay on, win bags of races and win them by miles. Rossi is natural, but as developed a superb way of making a bike better aswell as this talent, which is why he was so dominant.

Secondly, Stoner was maybe unable to give the engineers the feedback necessary to unlock the issues. Gardner was like this, as was Spencer. Bit like Ronnie Peterson in F1, Chapman once said he reckons he could have put the rears on the front and vice versa and Ronnie would have been within a second!

Rossi is analytical, he is trying to work out what is wrong, fix it step by step and then go for it. He has nothing to prove by riding for a podium and crashing, not at his age. And I can GUARANTEE you that Prezizizo and the engineers involved are delighted with this feedback, ideas and input. Far more than they were from Stoner.

Ducati are recalcitrant, it's why Rossi never signed for them in 2004 after all, he always knew he would be in the same boat as he was at Honda, in that he was just a tool, not the main thing. It's why he signed for Yamaha. This year, he simply had no chioce, he had nowhere else to go!

Anyone could win on that Honda, and I include guys like de Puniet, Bautista, Gibernau, Barros, Biaggi, Edwards Hayden. If Stoner or Dani were not on it, those guys would be able to be up front too, and anyone that can't see that is naieve!!
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Old 19 Aug 2011, 03:17 (Ref:2942778)   #62
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I do find it a bit of a shame that people are gagging to put Vale down. He is simply the best rider of a generation and just because Stoner could ride a bike as well and quicker than he could apparently he is a has been!
I don't think we're saying he's a has been. But is he the best of his generation, statictically yes, but as I said in a earlier post, for the first half of his MotoGP carreer his opposition was made up of Gibernau & Biaggi. These guys are hardly in the class of Lorenzo & Stoner. I think Vale is a great rider but no better than the other greats we have at the moment. He like Mick Doohan just happend to be competing when there was no-one else close to their class for a big chunk of their carrer



Anyone could win on that Honda, and I include guys like de Puniet, Bautista, Gibernau, Barros, Biaggi, Edwards Hayden. If Stoner or Dani were not on it, those guys would be able to be up front too, and anyone that can't see that is naieve!![/QUOTE]

I think your drawing a long bow there. One of these riders might luck into (Or just have a great day like Elias did) a win, But I can't see any of them consistently winning on a Honda (Dovizioso can't !!!!) I think you are denegrating Stoner and Pedrosa's achievements. Pretty much like saying anyone could have won on Rossi's Yamaha, we know Edwards had one and couldn't do it.

These top guys (Aliens) are in a class of there own.

What I was trying to get at is that Rossi is put on a pedestal as the greatest and everyone bows to his will, Tyre changes, team changes, Ducati (possibly) changing their design philosopy, when I don't think the worship is that warrented.
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Old 19 Aug 2011, 06:42 (Ref:2942809)   #63
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What you dont know though is that Edwards was developing tyres and bits for the bike most of the time and he did nearly win quite a few races.

What I meant to say was that is Stoner and Dani werent there, put pretty much anyone on that bike and they would standa a chance of winning. Look at the NSR in the late 90's, Mick had developed it very well, and guys liek Criville, Biaggi, Okada and Cadalora took advantage of that. They werent as consistent as Mick but often were as quick.

Now to take apart the critique about Valentino's speed. You are right about Sete and Max, but let's be honest Vale would have beaten them in EVERY race were it not for tyre issues, weather or rider error. Stoner is doing pretty much the same.

My belief is that Casey is the fastest rider out there, but is not as good at developing a bike. He can do it, he has with the Honda, but Vale is far better at it. He goes about it in a different way and is old enough now to realise that pushing for results is not good if you are going to keep falling as he did earlier on.

Each method has its inherent advantages. But, and most importantly, what do you think might happen if the Ducati was close? I can tell you, Vale would concentrate on an area where the bike was good, make is perfect there, pass lots of people there and keep it close elsewhere. It's how he and Burgess have worked for years.
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Old 19 Aug 2011, 15:42 (Ref:2942984)   #64
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I also don't think that in this day and age of GP racing, that you can just put anyone on the current best bike (a Honda in 2011) and they can win. The aliens are that good. Maybe it was more possible in the 990 era when there were special tires, less than savy electronics, and a variety of racing lines/styles. It's too specialized now and you have to be damn good to exploit the bike.

Given current machinery; Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa are on another planet and are simply untouchable.

As for the Duc, the aluminum conspiracy is gaining traction.
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Old 19 Aug 2011, 16:30 (Ref:2943010)   #65
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As for the Duc, the aluminum conspiracy is gaining traction.
It appears it is no longer a conspiracy but a reality.
Ducati Building Aluminium Chassis As Parallel Project
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Old 21 Aug 2011, 20:44 (Ref:2943793)   #66
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I dont really mean you could put anyone on a Honda and they win, I really mean they would stand a chance, if Dani, Casey and Jorge werent about.

I still rate Rossi, Hayden, Spies as at their level, but they are struggling on biikesthat are not perfect.

THe Honda is perfect for Stoner and Dani, and the Yam is perfect for Jorge, everyone else has bike issues of some kind.
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Old 28 Aug 2011, 19:25 (Ref:2947311)   #67
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Forgive me if someone's mentioned this already, but whatever Ducati did to make the 2007 Duke the best bike out there, they had a massive advantage that year that no other manufacturer had, ie, Bridgestone.
So dominant were the tyres over the Michelins, that Rossi demanded them for 2008. Most commentators said at that the time, probably only Rossi could make the new tyres work for him in such a short space of time. Edwards as I remember was on Michelin for 2008
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Old 29 Aug 2011, 15:33 (Ref:2947745)   #68
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It's true, I don't think the control tire issue can be ignored here. Ducati went from having a virtual Bridgestone monopoly to just being another team. It's tough to say how much the tires changed when they became the spec tire for the series. Basically, it's just another piece of the package. And right now Ducati as a package is lacking.

I feel sorry for their customer teams!
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Old 30 Aug 2011, 18:37 (Ref:2948460)   #69
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I generally frown on too much copy and paste, but there is some good stuff here. Some snippets from a Stoner interview at Indy courtesy of superbikeplanet.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Aug/110830cs27.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoner
"I don't feel that it's that much different," Stoner said one night at Indianapolis. "You set the bike up for the way that the bike rides, every bike you ride is different. Each chassis is going to feel and react in a different way. Carbon fiber doesn't feel the way that people expect it to feel—it's not a stiff and rigid bike. The bike still moves and bucks and weaves. You saw it, we never really fixed it, just reduced it."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoner
"(With) the steel trellis frame I personally had no advantages. I didn't like the way that it felt, didn't like the way it went over bumps. I found that steel wanted to react and return instead of being sort of a mellow sort of flex. When it did flex, it just wanted to return so you'd be in the middle of the corner and it always wanted to move. It wasn't very precise. I found that the steel trellis frame had no positives."

"With each step with the carbon frame we found big steps forward—and the other manufacturers were making big steps forward, so we had to go with it."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoner
"That bike has every chance of being competitive," he says curtly."

"It was a just a little too finicky," he concedes. "You had to be really precise on the set up, which is the way the Ducati has been since the first day I was on it. If it wasn't perfectly right then it was hard to ride. But when it was right it was great. But, when it wasn't great ... that was one big thing ..."
Definite shot at the current regime as far as results are concerned!
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Old 31 Aug 2011, 01:35 (Ref:2948662)   #70
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Yes I think that is return serve for the Rossi 'Stoner isn't trying hard enough on the Ducati' and Burgess 'It's just setup, I'll fix the bike in 30 minutes'

I might not be quite correct with the wording but the sentiments of what was said are right. You'd have to say the last laugh is with Casey when he just replied 'Wait till Rossi gets on the bike'

I do agree that Rossi/Burgess are great developers of Bikes, you just have to look at the Honda and Yamaha but why can't they get the Ducati to perform. If it is setup, guys of Rossi's and Burgess' ilk should be able to find that tiny setup window that Stoner has said the Ducati needs.
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Old 31 Aug 2011, 06:44 (Ref:2948707)   #71
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I think really that Rossi and JB are realists? I am not so sure they will take the risk to maybe stand a chance of getting a podium. Why would you bother just get 5th instead of 8th?

It is fairly obvious that Casey rides it different to Valentino, but to start crowing about it and playing tit for tatt is a bit childish on Casey's part. He has the right to be cocky coz he has proved he can ride two bikes better than Valentino, but he hasn't yet won many world titles or races. He didnt win a 250 or 125 title either.

These are all achievements, no matter how you look at it, and I cant see Casey being around for years after he is a Dad.

I will agree Rossi is losing his edge on this bike, he is not prepared to hang it out and seemingly can't ride the bike like Casey could. It's a fascinating situation. But I still believe Ducati have not been as flexible as Yamaha were in 2004, loads of different frames, 4 engine types, all for him to test.

Yes, they bent over backwards, but who looks the chump now? Yamaha? Certainly not, they invested heavily to help Vale. Ducati were never going to be like that, they are not big enough and they are certainly stubborn enough to expect Rossi to ride anything, it's why he didnt sign for them in 2004, and it is haunting him now. He is riding their bike and it will not be the bieks fault, not the other way round as was the case at Yamaha

It seems to me that it's as simple as being left or right handed. It seems Casey at least might be a little ambidextrous! Whereas Rossi is certainly only left handed. Does that mke him less of a champion, no, less of a talent, no, less of an alien, maybe?
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Old 31 Aug 2011, 17:41 (Ref:2948955)   #72
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To be honest, I don't think Stoner is being cocky, I just think he has very low tollerance for uninformed opinion. Same thing about his supposed whining. It may sound whiney, but most often he's just telling it like it is. Rossi stated along with many others that the bike was fine and Stoner just needed to stop falling off. But it's plain to see now he was on the ragged edge to get results.

Maybe Rossi would have done the same 10 years ago, but now he's not willing to ride that way. He wants to develop a new Duc that is a friendly piece of kit. Fair enough.

I'm happy to say that Stoner is a special talent and in the same breath admit Rossi isn't a shadow of what we all thought he is just because he can't/wont push the Duc to a result. The man is still a genius. Time to move on.

The fascinating part of this remains, can/will Ducati change the bike enough to make it ridable for others?

Fair point by Chunder, Rossi did turn his back on Ducati pre 2004 because he thought they were too Honda like. And Stoner seemed to support that by saying they really didn't give him the support he needed. (he seemed hurt that Ducati were willing to build new parts/bike for Rossi) They instead would rather him just ride around the issues, which he did. But now you have Rossi, not willing to do that, and wanting to heavily revise what they have, or scrap it in favor of something else.
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Old 1 Sep 2011, 00:40 (Ref:2949173)   #73
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It is fairly obvious that Casey rides it different to Valentino, but to start crowing about it and playing tit for tatt is a bit childish on Casey's part. He has the right to be cocky coz he has proved he can ride two bikes better than Valentino, but he hasn't yet won many world titles or races. He didnt win a 250 or 125 title either.
I think he's handled himself quite well, to be honest... It would have been very easy to throw his toys out of the pram last year - when things weren't going particularly well and "others" were having plenty to say about the situation...

His response was nothing more than a calm and measured, "let's see what happens next year"...

This year, things are playing out exactly as he expected, and naturally the media are asking him about it... From everything I've seen, it has not been Casey "speaking out" or seeking an outlet to voice his opinion - he has been asked about the scenario consistently by the media (because it is a good story that people want to know about)... Casey, being a boy from the country, simply answers the questions exactly as he sees it...

And "others" seem to be getting in a tizz over it... These "others" were more than happy to heap it on Casey last year, but now these "others" appear to be struggling worse than Casey ever was, they seem to be pretty sensitive about him pretty much stating the obvious when asked...

And Casey has done enough in the sport to "justify" his opinion - just because he didn't have a bunch of backers or manufacturer support to buy him multiple titles in 125s or 250s does not make his opinion less valuable... He has gotten where his based exclusively on talent - which probably makes his opinion more valuable, to be honest...
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Old 1 Sep 2011, 01:21 (Ref:2949183)   #74
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And Casey has done enough in the sport to "justify" his opinion - just because he didn't have a bunch of backers or manufacturer support to buy him multiple titles in 125s or 250s does not make his opinion less valuable... He has gotten where his based exclusively on talent - which probably makes his opinion more valuable, to be honest...
I agree with Mac, I don't think he's been sticking the knife in at all, he's just been answering questions thrown at him. And as he's been the only one that's been successful on the bike they are asking questions about, he'd be the most qualified to answer them. He hasn't just spouted opinions of things he know nothing about, Ala Rossi/Burgess last year.

To say because he didn't win a title on a 125 or a 250 so he's not as quailified to have an opinion is utter garbage. Anyone with half an idea who saw Stoner ride and take the fight to Pedrosa in 2005 on a bike that was not a patch on the factory equipment Pedrosa had knew the boy had heaps of talent, and yes he crashed a bit then too. I don't think anyone really understood (Until this year, thank you Valentino Rossi) just how hard and how close to the edge Stoner was pushing himself and his bikes to get the results he was.

History is littered with riders who have won the lower classes on the best bikes and not been able to reproduce on the top class

Melandri
Pedrosa (only because he's yet to win MotoGP title)
Biaggi
Kosinski

To name a few, should we ask these guys why the Ducati's not so good.

Last edited by Trev Campbell; 1 Sep 2011 at 01:27.
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Old 1 Sep 2011, 08:46 (Ref:2949258)   #75
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Calling someone elses view on here garbage is really rather rude, especially when your facts are wrong!

Stoner only ever rode for Aprilia in 250, and was on a factory LCR bike with de Puniet, and it took him a while to learn to ride it. Pedrosa was aso on a factory bike, but not an NSR, it was a very modified RS Honda, much like the one Aoyama and Dovi rode to win aswell. Stoner was always quick on the straights on that bike, so in my eyes he could have won a world title, but didn't. He got beaten by a better bike,rider combination in Pedrosa and the Honda. Herode 125's at world level for 3 years, and even then was on a KTM which at the time was quick bit not the best, he won a race but never looked a title contender.

My point about Rossi winning titles is that he learned how to win. The bikes he was on were good yes, but he earned that in his first year in 96 with the sort of riding that earned the Nastro ride in 97 and then on. Stoner never got to that level Rossi did in his first year or he might have also attracted that level of support. He has had to work for it more, but you get what you deserve

in 2000, the NSR was Crivilles, he couldnt ride it, so they designed one round Rossi more and he won the title. Stoner couldnt ride the RCV211 remember, he kept crashing despite showing glimpses of amazing speed.

Basing an entire argument around one mans ability to ride one bike to wins and anothers inability to gel with it is fine. But it doesnt make him better or worse.

Rossi is mcomiong to the end of his career, why should he take the risks, he has hjad a scare with the leg break and shoulder, why bother really?

I find it sad people are so eager to put the boot in, yes Stoner has made him look a chump, but do you think Rossi wouldnt be dominating too on that Honda, and more importantly, do you think Stoner would be winning on that Duke this year? Smehow I think not.
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