[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[lms]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's not conclusive, but coupes look to be the way to go from a safety point of view in P1, not to mention performance

that

[joeb]

Originally Posted by johntt

There is one thing we have learnt from this weekend.

The fins worked.

Without the fin keeping the car on the ground Rockenfeller's crash would have been much much worse than it was.

McNish's car would have been taken off long before it hit the armco if it wasn't for the shark fin.

It was pretty amazing to see McNish hovering over the gravel, but not flip. I applaud the ACO for this mandate. It may have saved many lives this weekend.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's not conclusive, but coupes look to be the way to go from a safety point of view in P1, not to mention performance and aesthetics.

http://twitpic.com/5ab7qn

[TRuss]

I feel like in McNish's case that you can tell that the fin is doing it's job. While I agree that it's likely that the fin also helped keep Rocky's car on the ground it's just really hard to tell anything by the video that I have seen.

[The Badger]

Maybe the fin did its job ..... I dont know .

But the regulation about legal rear tyres on the front certainly had something to do with this . I think its shocking to expect a driver to do times like this with so little view .

I do prefer open cockpits , but the coupe certainly did its job .

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Maybe the fin did its job ..... I dont know .

But the regulation about legal rear tyres on the front certainly had something to do with this . I think its shocking to expect a driver to do times like this with so little view .

I do prefer open cockpits , but the coupe certainly did its job .

There are three cars using wide fronts: Audi, Peugeot, and Rebellion Toyota. Note only 1 out of the three had any issues during the race. I think it has only to do with Audi's drivers simply not being used to the different visibility afforded a closed car having driven at this race the past 10 years in open cars. The last time any Audi driver was in a closed car was Bentley 2003? The diameter difference between the wide fronts and the traditional fronts is 1.2". Yes, that is also across more width, but I find it hard to believe that's the difference between being able to see out of the car and not being able to see out of the car. Especially so when only 1/3 of the competitors supposedly had any issue with it.

[gwyllion]

The AMR-One also has the wide front tyres, but of course that is an open car so visibility is better in general.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

The last time any Audi driver was in a closed car was Bentley 2003?

Treluyer drove (and destroyed) the Pescarolo Peugeot 908 HDi FAP at LM in 2009.

[dsegs]

And curiously he was in the only car that didn't crash...

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by dsegs

And curiously he was in the only car that didn't crash...

Curiously the #2 car never had a hiccup all week.

The #1 and #3 cars had all been crashed in the practice and qualy sessions. They crashed in the race as well.

[gwyllion]

Some comments from Henri Pescarolo on the diesel-petrol equivalance based on what he see in Le Mans: http://endurance-info.com/version2/a...ance-7447.html

To end on a positive note, I believe that this time the ACO has really realized the gap between the performance of diesels and that of petrols. We had a meeting yesterday with the ACO that goes in that sense.
About nine seconds between diesels and us, of which four come from the chassis that are newer than ours, this seems normal, the rest is a question of power and acceleration.
The technical committee of the World Championship will consist of people from the ACO and the FIA​​, and I think it will be good.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Well the ACO wanted to make the cockpits at little bit wider and taller, but because Open tops weren't outlawed that aspiration was quietly forgotten.

So given the whole "visibility" debate they may try to re-visit that decision, whilst not hurting the Coupés aero dynamics too much. However, without something like a minimum height for the drivers seat the effect of those changes would be rather limited.

[chernaudi]

And the ACO doesn't have a minimum height for these cars, in stead they have a maximum height of 1030mm.

Just look at the photo that Audi released of a R18 parked next to an A6--the R18's engine intake barely comes up to the bottom of the A6' door mirror. And the R18 is also noticeably shorter than the R15 from last year.

It's little wonder why the McNish accident happened--Allan's opertunistic move combined with the fact that Beltoise couldn't see Allan, along with the R18 being so short in stature (the Allan McNish/Anthony Davidson of LM racing cars), it's little wonder why that accident happened. Visiblity out of the Ferrari's rear and side (like most GT cars) is fairly crap, the mirrors are to the ACO's minimum size, and the Audi is so short in overall height.

I know that ignornace is no excuse for breaking the law, but we have to give Beltoise a break on this one--he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, an impossible position.

Not sure about the Rocky/Rob Kauffman accident, though. Kauffman definenly came down on Rocky like he didn't know that the Audi had closed on him that fast, in spite of Mike flashing the lights at him from a far ways back, and again as he closed.

There, I don't think that the size difference between the Audi and the 458 was a major factor, but Kauffman's inexperience around LMP cars and at LM probably was.

But does anyone think that having a max height for LMP cars is counter intuitive, since that basically encourages teams to build cars as short as possible to reduce drag? What's next? Are guys like Fassler, Lotterer, and Treluyer--who according to their Audi Sport bios are nearly if not over 6'0"--let alone 6'5" Alex Wurz headed out to pasture in favor or migets? Because it seems like that's the way things are headed, joking aside. The R18 and the new 908 just seem to be inhumanly small in the cockpit area.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And the ACO doesn't have a minimum height for these cars, in stead they have a maximum height of 1030mm.

Just look at the photo that Audi released of a R18 parked next to an A6--the R18's engine intake barely comes up to the bottom of the A6' door mirror. And the R18 is also noticeably shorter than the R15 from last year.

It's little wonder why the McNish accident happened--Allan's opertunistic move combined with the fact that Beltoise couldn't see Allan, along with the R18 being so short in stature (the Allan McNish/Anthony Davidson of LM racing cars), it's little wonder why that accident happened. Visiblity out of the Ferrari's rear and side (like most GT cars) is fairly crap, the mirrors are to the ACO's minimum size, and the Audi is so short in overall height.

I know that ignornace is no excuse for breaking the law, but we have to give Beltoise a break on this one--he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, an impossible position.

Not sure about the Rocky/Rob Kauffman accident, though. Kauffman definenly came down on Rocky like he didn't know that the Audi had closed on him that fast, in spite of Mike flashing the lights at him from a far ways back, and again as he closed.

There, I don't think that the size difference between the Audi and the 458 was a major factor, but Kauffman's inexperience around LMP cars and at LM probably was.

But does anyone think that having a max height for LMP cars is counter intuitive, since that basically encourages teams to build cars as short as possible to reduce drag? What's next? Are guys like Fassler, Lotterer, and Treluyer--who according to their Audi Sport bios are nearly if not over 6'0"--let alone 6'5" Alex Wurz headed out to pasture in favor or migets? Because it seems like that's the way things are headed, joking aside. The R18 and the new 908 just seem to be inhumanly small in the cockpit area.

Do you mean having a minimum height? Thats a bit wild and i doubt it'll happen What need to happen is the the GT cars need to be equipped with Dimming Mirror and possible a blue light system in the car that would flash when an LMP car equipped with a radio repeater draws near.

[broadrun96]

I have to say the blue light in the dash hooked to a radio receiver to pick up an approaching LMP is a good idea. Especially if it can be activated to flash slowly at distance and pick up speed as they close, wouldn't be needed for most races but definitely could be useful in the overnight hours at LM.

But I would also like to see a way for either the passing or passed car to signal to the other which side to use. It could have helped in Rocky/Kauffman's case if either could have signaled to the other what side to stay on to keep out of each other's way. It couldn't be too hard to link up a flasher button the top of the wheel left and right for the driver to indicate. Would be even easier on a GT2 Vette, supposedly they use the factory steering assembly complete with the tilt/telescoping mechanism so I'm sure the wires would still be in it for the blinkers.

Waiting for the complaints about the old guy racers leaving the left turn indicator on all race and probably should duck to avoid the things about to be thrown at me.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I have to say the blue light in the dash hooked to a radio receiver to pick up an approaching LMP is a good idea. Especially if it can be activated to flash slowly at distance and pick up speed as they close, wouldn't be needed for most races but definitely could be useful in the overnight hours at LM.

But I would also like to see a way for either the passing or passed car to signal to the other which side to use. It could have helped in Rocky/Kauffman's case if either could have signaled to the other what side to stay on to keep out of each other's way. It couldn't be too hard to link up a flasher button the top of the wheel left and right for the driver to indicate. Would be even easier on a GT2 Vette, supposedly they use the factory steering assembly complete with the tilt/telescoping mechanism so I'm sure the wires would still be in it for the blinkers.

Waiting for the complaints about the old guy racers leaving the left turn indicator on all race and probably should duck to avoid the things about to be thrown at me.

yeah. In case you didnt know all the cars even the P1 and P2 cars have yellow turn signals. occasionally you see them use them in the pitlane

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I have to say the blue light in the dash hooked to a radio receiver to pick up an approaching LMP is a good idea. Especially if it can be activated to flash slowly at distance and pick up speed as they close, wouldn't be needed for most races but definitely could be useful in the overnight hours at LM.

But I would also like to see a way for either the passing or passed car to signal to the other which side to use. It could have helped in Rocky/Kauffman's case if either could have signaled to the other what side to stay on to keep out of each other's way. It couldn't be too hard to link up a flasher button the top of the wheel left and right for the driver to indicate.

So in addition to trying to concentrate on the track in front of them and the cars in their mirrors they can now look at a light on their dash. That sort of thing is fine on the Dakar rally where it is utilised. How is that going to make things safer flying along at Le Mans!? There isn't time to indicate which way you are going. A track has corners so the situation changes every few seconds anyway. Also it's hardly safe having a guy monitor a light to see how quickly a car is approaching.

Sorry to just **** all over your ideas but it is just another example of over-reaction.

[broadrun96]

Because a flashing light would require some serious mental focus? Doesn't seem like having a light indicate something they would otherwise notice ALREADY would be so taxing?? As for a flash to indicate which side, they are ALREADY flashing everyone and his brother including often a car they are trying to pass for position so you can't POSSIBLY think that would be too taxing for even an amateur driver. I did not mean at every corner but to indicate at NIGHT and at high speed which side of a GT car an LMP is going to pass would not be rejected out of hand by any driver in either rank. And for over-reaction, really it's over-reacting to suggest an alternative instead of *****ING and WHINING all day that Kauffman should be banned from racing at LM forever?? Sorry but suggesting something is thousands of times more appropriate than just ****ing on everyone's ideas.

Now that I've had my snap and vented I'll take my time in the corner to cool down and use my time away skip the incessant whining and ****ing that will be the death of sportscar racing.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The AMR-One also has the wide front tyres, but of course that is an open car so visibility is better in general.

And it should be noted the AMR moves at a much slower pace than the other cars listed above. Thus more time to react and less time actually on track to be put in harm's way.

Scott Goodyear destroyed the Acura ARX02 when he never saw a Porsche exiting the pits at Petite a couple of years ago. LM is a rather broad and sweeping track, it will be interesting to see if the visibility issues increase at shorter more intense tracks.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

Scott Goodyear destroyed the Acura ARX02 when he never saw a Porsche exiting the pits at Petite a couple of years ago. LM is a rather broad and sweeping track, it will be interesting to see if the visibility issues increase at shorter more intense tracks.

Scott Sharp, not Scott Goodyear. The only thing Scott Goodyear did not see was the Indy pace car (a Corvette I think) driving in turn four in 1995!

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by AGD

Scott Sharp, not Scott Goodyear. The only thing Scott Goodyear did not see was the Indy pace car (a Corvette I think) driving in turn four in 1995!

Sharp, Goodyear...at least I got the Scott part right...sheesh...

[gwyllion]

According to http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmay11.html the ACO will introduce aero changes for 2012 to further reduce the chance of cars getting airborn sideways.

The proposed changes include a longer and taller fin that is integrated into any roof inlet, an increase in the area of the mandatory front fender louvers from 160 cm2 to 200 cm2, mandatory louvers on the rear fenders (100 cm2), and an increase in the height of the domed skid from 20 mm to 30 mm.

An even bigger fin

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmay11.html the ACO will introduce aero changes for 2012 to further reduce the chance of cars getting airborn sideways.
An even bigger fin

I don't mind the fin has grown to me. I like it. Its just the marketing people that make it look ugly with stylus stickering. I think it looks a bit like the fin f1 cars had. And as described by mulsannemike. The buffer the fin the more aerodynamicly efficient it is. So its also going to benefit the cars.

[JAG]

TBH, after Le Mans I just want to see safe cars, with sensible updates, so we can enjoy the racing.

What's the aim of larger louvers?

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by JAG

TBH, after Le Mans I just want to see safe cars, with sensible updates, so we can enjoy the racing.

Those were bad crashes, and if the fin in any way helped to aid in the safety of the drivers and bystanders, then I would say that they are a good thing.

The fins are unsightly, but as said above, they are a bit easier to look at after you have seen them for a while.

Mike, do you believe that the fin was a major factor for McNish's car not flipping during the crash?