MSV F3 Cup unveils plans for 2012 expansion

[Simon Davey]

MSVR series open to more recent F3 chassis from next season

The F3 Cup is set for a major evolution in 2012 following the announcement of the initial plans for the series next year.

From next season the MSVR-run F3 Cup will accept entries from chassis that were constructed and raced up to and including 2007. Currently, entries are limited to Formula 3 cars built and raced up to and including 2004. All cars which race in the 2011 F3 Cup will continue to be eligible for the 2012 season.

Next year will also see the series organisers permitting the Spiess OPC engine, as used by the ATS Formula 3 Cup in Germany, to help reduce engine rebuild costs and improve general reliability. Other engines will be considered subject to written application, in order to give competitors and teams the option of alternative power units.

A new class structure will be created in 2012 and further details will be announced shortly. However, it has already been confirmed that an invitation class will be created to enable F3 cars of any age to join the series, subject to the approval of the organisers.

MSVR Race Operations manager David Scott said: “MSVR are pleased to announce our initial plans for the F3 Cup in 2012. With the evolution of Formula 3 at International level, the time is right to allow cars into the series that were manufactured up until 31/12/2007.

“We will also permit, subject to individual application, derivative engines such as the Spiess OPC. This engine runs a larger restrictor than the standard F3 engines but the internal components of the engine are such that its life between rebuilds is considerably higher, thus reducing rebuild costs for competitors and teams.

“The Invitation Class will permit all F3 cars to join our events, again subject to the approval of the series organisers. The Class structure will be subject to a review and will be announced at a later date.

“With an excellent 2012 race calendar that will be available to F3 Cup competitors, including Brands Hatch GP, Oulton Park, Spa Francorchamps and the fabulous new Snetterton 300 circuit, MSVR are confident that the series will continue to flourish and grow with these extremely positive developments.”

The 2011 F3 Cup continues with a visit to the Brands Hatch Indy circuit on 16/17 July. Entries are still available for this season and any drivers interested in joining should contact F3 Cup series co-ordinator Simon Davey on 07770 368648 or email f3cup@msvracing.co.uk.

[anniemosity]

This must be the dumbest thing I have seen this year
Do you really think in this current economic climate people will go and buy a newer more expensive F3 car than they can currently run now?

There are plenty of F3 cars in the UK that can race in this years series
Instead of moving the goal posts why not encourage the current car owners to come and race?

Now you have allowed in a car that is actually a better car than the 04 car you have depressed car values so now older cars are harder to sell amnd then you need to find the cash difference.

When where the car owners polled on this move? and i dont mean registered 2011 racers i mean car owners
It never happened

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by anniemosity

When where the car owners polled on this move? and i dont mean registered 2011 racers i mean car owners

Someone should poll a non-existant list of alleged current car owners who don't enter races anyway whether they would support it any less if the regs changed?

[anniemosity]

As you have nowt to do lad you start the list then give them a call
what should be happeneing is the co ordinator calling them to find out why they do not race and do something about it NOT allow in newer cars
all that wil do is permit someone with more $$ to buy the last car and run that
The F3 scene has been poor for 5 years and it needs stability
look at HSCC classic F3 it has stronger grids because people see the merit in a cut off date as do the French with pre 85

with Club F3 1 tail wags the dog because they buy the 02 car then get rules changed then next they but 05 car and same thing happens

[Simon Davey]

Originally Posted by anniemosity

what should be happeneing is the co ordinator calling them to find out why they do not race and do something about it

So, I am the Co-ordinator for the F3 Cup and also for Monoposto.

This weekend at Brands the two categories share a grid. Let's first look at the entry:

For the F3 Cup/Mono race the total entry is a capacity 38. This includes 17 F3 Cup cars and 12 F3 cars racing to Monoposto spec. 15 of the F3 Cup cars are entered in the "newest" class - Class A. There are a total of 24 Dallaras entered including 6 Mono spec Dallaras. I know all the entrants and drivers of the cars listed above. It's worth mentioning that Brands is a combined race because the F3 Cup entry is not large enough to make the finances work for a "stand alone" F3 Cup race on the Brands GP circuit.

By the way - there is another Monoposto race at Brands as well, for the smaller capacity Mono classes, which is heavily oversubscribed and should also be a tremendous race.

Now let's look at who is NOT running:

I am aware of 4 post-2000 F3 spec Dallaras not running next weekend. I also know the drivers/teams involved with these cars and understand why they aren't entered. I'm also aware of 9 Mono-spec Dallaras not entered next weekend, and have a similarly detailed understanding of why they aren't running.

I don't know of any other 2000-2004 spec F3 cars currently in the UK at all, despite chasing up possible leads since last December. If anyone does has a car that's eligible for the F3 Cup that I haven't been in touch with, I certainly apologise for missing you! Please contact me on f3cup@msvracing.co.uk. As far as I know, none of the half dozen potential new drivers that want to race in the F3 Cup in a recent car have been able to find any either. Availability of recent cars has been a key factor in preventing new drivers joining the F3 Cup this year. If nothing is done to change car availability it will be very hard to grow entry numbers. With changes being made also to international F3, it's a good time to move the age limit forward to allow 2005-2007 cars into the F3 Cup.

Now let's think about the changes for next year:

Based on my detailed involvement in F3 Cup and Mono I think it is nonsense to claim that there is a large reservoir of suitable unraced F3 cars in the UK, whose owners should have been identified and consulted about a change to the F3 Cup.

Among existing F3 Cup competitors, opinions are divided about the change, and this is not surprising. Club F3 has not in fact changed its age limits for some time, and has fallen behind similar categories elsewhere. (This has been a factor in "loosing" cars overseas.) Obviously whenever an age-limited category looks at moving forward the age limit, there is always the consideration of the effect the change will have on existing competitors versus how many new cars the change will attract In the F3 Cup, based on the experience of 04 cars racing against 07 cars at the very successful Spa race this year it appears that the 07 spec cars do not have a large advantage. However as a result of the early announcement of the age limit change we are already seeing new drivers and cars preparing to enter the F3 Cup next season.

So - "Anniemosity" - since you are clearly interested in both the F3 Cup and FF1600 racing we must share a lot in common. Come along to the Brands GP meeting and introduce yourself. I'll be around the Monoposto awning most of the weekend and I'll look forward to talking to you.

Simon Davey

F3 Cup Administrator
Monoposto Championship Co-ordinator

[Osama Baned later]

By Allah and all that is holy I think my good friend Simon Davey has spoken the true words,

Where are these missing cars that the Prophet Kevin speaks of? I think they are all being used in MSV F3 or already racing up hills in an attempt to meet the one god as fast as possible whilst making their legs several inches shorter.

There are some 2004 cars for sale in the second great Satan some call Australia but since Gordon Browns most excellent handling of the British economy it will cost more than a new 2007 car to exchange your pink pounds for Aussie dollars.

If the boy with the Hebrew name can beat 2007 Nicky Lauda wannabes in his old 04 then no one should be complaining. Spend the energy it takes to log onto the internet to drive faster. Like Schumaker, the problem with Club F3 drivers is not the age of their cars, it is the age on their licences that slows them down.

Sometimes changes, like the skyline of New York have to be forced on people. Only later do they appreciate the opportunity to build better. Forget 2004 cars, go and buy a nice shiney 2007 and be happy. As an infidel friend of mine used to say, better to lose pretty than win ugly. But maybe he was thinking more about Friday night clubbing.

Annie must put her old stock on ebay and hope for the best. It is a free market economy and if a Dallara F3000 is now as valuable as Pakistani border controls then so be it.

The only question to Simon is if we are to move forward and embrace the new world order, will 2007 Dallara's be permitted in Monoposto 2000?

Allahu Akbar

[schomosport]

So where can I be getting me one of those F300 Dallara thingies that are now apparently worth less than a Ralt upright?

[Piripi Aki]

I think you will find Richard Purcell has 5 or 6 F300's that he would sell. They are not legal for Monoposto unless you change the throttle bodies but are otherwose good cars. Otherwise Annie McClurg must have some F398's and F300's she hasnt been able to move for months.
As for price, if you can buy a good F305/7 for under 40k, why would you pay more than 20k for a car considerably older?

[tristancliffe]

Richard's cars are all legal now. An in terms of the actual restriction they always have been, it was just they weren't the specified shape for ease of measuring. Richard has not been cheating at any point that I'm aware of, and I don't think he would.

[Triple J Motorsport]

How much is a ready to race early 2000's Dallara that is capable of winning? £30K?

Post 2000 FRenault £15K

FFZetec Mono1800 £8K

[reynard55]

Originally Posted by Triple J Motorsport

How much is a ready to race early 2000's Dallara that is capable of winning? £30K?

Post 2000 FRenault £15K

FFZetec Mono1800 £8K

But when did motor racing take that sort of sense seriously

[jamesl]

Louis’ red 301 won earlier this year, and his car is always quick when entered.
It’s actually for sale at the moment on the F3 for sale section and IMO is sensibly priced for a proven race winning car.
http://www.f3cup.co.uk/classifieds-section.aspx

While I agree that the French Classic F3 series continues to go from strength to strength, we shouldn’t forget it is historic racing and its traditional to have cut off dates in historics. This is contemporary Clubman F3 racing, and IMO it’s not unreasonable that the dates move on every 3 or 6 years. MSVR and Mono have made a great start with promoting the series in 2011, and my money is on seeing 20+ F3 cars at Silverstone GP in September. 2012 promises to be even better.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by jamesl

Louis’ red 301 won earlier this year, and his car is always quick when entered.
It’s actually for sale at the moment on the F3 for sale section and IMO is sensibly priced for a proven race winning car.
http://www.f3cup.co.uk/classifieds-section.aspx

While I agree that the French Classic F3 series continues to go from strength to strength, we shouldn’t forget it is historic racing and its traditional to have cut off dates in historics. This is contemporary Clubman F3 racing, and IMO it’s not unreasonable that the dates move on every 3 or 6 years. MSVR and Mono have made a great start with promoting the series in 2011, and my money is on seeing 20+ F3 cars at Silverstone GP in September. 2012 promises to be even better.

Good value car and looks in good shape. I fancy MSV F3 next year.

Looked a great grid last weekend at Brands. I don't know why you don't do that more often - drop Mono Class A and add them to MSV F3 under the MSV F3 mono Class.

[tristancliffe]

God no. If that happens I'll remove a spark plug and enter my car in the 1800 class.

[jamesl]

[QUOTE=Redracer77;2945225]Good value car and looks in good shape. I fancy MSV F3 next year.

Class B F3 cars (upto Dec 31st 1996) are particuarly good value for money.
Up togeather class B cars are similar in price to Formula Ford 1600 / 2000

[JohnMiller]

Maybe running one of the cheaper F3 engines now admitted, like the Opel Challenger (OPC) or the European F3 Open motors is as good a way forward as any other?

[FFmygale]

Agree completely John, but would it be possible or sensible to consider making the 05/07 class only use the restricted longer life engines. Afterall, if they dont prove as quick as a Mercedes or a Mugen, then people will only end up drifting toward the faster engine. If you make the regs such that there is no choice but to run on the restricted/higher mileage engine from the outset, then that could possibly help the longevity of the series?

[JohnMiller]

Not sure the nice people I have sold my British F3 cars too would agree now!

[ff90]

I understand the regs for next year also include a clause to allow a level playing field to be formed over time with the current engines the bench mark so if the euro Toyota or OPC Opel have an advantage for some reason they could be handicapped restricted in some way. Not sure how but its intended that no one has a straight advantage to encourage good racing, at least that’s my understanding, time will tell, but things are looking up.

[FFmygale]

But if the Euro engines have a DISADVANTAGE - why would any body use them?

[tristancliffe]

Because it's cheaper and more reliable? Not everyone is in it to win it. All club/amateur championships (and series) rely on the slower people at the back who have no intention of winning to, essentially, keep the club going so that the competitive people at the front can do that too. The hard part is keeping the front AND the back of the grid happy at the same time. But some people just like taking part and 'being a racing driver', even if they know they'll never win anything.

[ff90]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

But if the Euro engines have a DISADVANTAGE - why would any body use them?

Who said they would be disavantaged, watched Mr Millars cars going very well the other week and they were quoting 220bhp figures, but Mr Millar would know much better??

[JohnMiller]

Who knows? I suspect it will come more down to driver and prep than engine.

Traditional F3 engine is usually seen as a bit stronger, but probably harder to drive.

Recently both series raced at Brands GP within a few weeks of each other:

British Rookie Class pole, F307: 1.20.471

Euro Open Copa Class pole, F306: 1.20:055

The Open car runs on Dunlops. How do they compare to Cooper Avons? I doubt anybody really knows right now. (Though I suspect someone may be about to find out...)

[andrewc]

MSVR have just announced the Toyota 3S-GE-SXE10 spec engine as used in the European Open F3 series will be permitted to run in the 2012 series.

[JNWRF01]

that makes it more interesting... I think there are several guys sitting on the sidelines waiting to see what happens here - engine rebuilds and fuel costs are the two main reasons why I have looked but not raced in Club F3.. I last raced in F4 as it was cheap engines and pump fuel.

The Spanish spec will adjusted up/down to achieve parity with the true F3 engines?

The objective here has to be to create a class where the cars are reasonable to run and obv prices need to be stable.

IF anyone knows of good site to view Spanish F3 cars (aside from the "usual") please post (if allowed!)