FIA GT FIA GT2 Spa 24 Hours • Spa • July 30-Aug 1st - Page 3

arakis · 30 Jul 2010, 12:34 (Ref:2735759)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid09

This is getting ridiculous...the M3 is not a prototype and it certainly does not cost a million Euros. Don't make stuff up to get your point across.

sorry 750K euros, I ment 1mil dolars, and yes it is a prototype, because it is a purpose bult race car, while all the other competitiors are road to race conversions.

when a car that costs around 80k at the road costs 750k at the race, while a porsche costs areund 120k road and 350k race, if you dont get the difference then this is a pointless discussion

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 12:37 (Ref:2735761)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

sorry 750K euros, I ment 1mil dolars

You still can't seem to explain why the M3, that is obviously some kind of prototype in disguise in your book, hasn't been the dominant car in any series it entered so far..

And talking about what GT2 needs: Of course it needs more Porsches and Ferraris... because that battle hasn't gone on long enough .. who needs variety, right?

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 12:40 (Ref:2735764)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

when a car that costs around 80k at the road costs 750k at the race, while a porsche costs areund 120k road and 350k race, if you dont get the difference then this is a pointless discussion

What does that tell us? Nothing... the price isn't reflective of what it costs to build the car but what BMW wants to earn selling one.

Maybe they aren't interested to sell customer cars, they rarely did so with the old M3. So by putting a hefty price tag onto it you scare buyers away.

Plus, I don't think that price has ever been confirmed anywhere. So for all we know, it's another lie.

arakis · 30 Jul 2010, 12:40 (Ref:2735765)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid09

You still can't seem to explain why the M3, that is obviously some kind of prototype in disguise in your book, hasn't been the dominant car in any series it entered so far..

And talking about what GT2 needs: Of course it needs more Porsches and Ferraris... because that battle hasn't gone on long enough .. who needs variety, right?

no what it needs is Audi R8, Lamburgini Galardo, Corvette(with it has), spyker(with it has), Aston(witch it has), and other sports cars, not saloon, or touring cars.

In othere words it needs cars that are comparable on the street. like I said the spirit of the rules is to convert road cars to race cars, with as minimal adjustment as possible!

as for the price, if what you said is true that they don't want buyers, well that is against the spirit of the rules as well because it is suposed to be a privateer based class

I Rosputnik · 30 Jul 2010, 12:41 (Ref:2735766)

Wasn't Ratel going to accounce something reguarding a hybrid GT class this weekend?

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 12:43 (Ref:2735768)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

no what it needs is Audi R8, Lamburgini Galardo, Corvette(with it has), spyker(with it has), Aston(witch it has), and other sports cars, not saloon, or touring cars

The M3 is a sports-car, one of the most popular in the world.

And please, don't mention efforts like Spyker and Aston Martin. Yes, Porsche and Ferrari accept them because they are no threat to their dominance.

But as soon as someone is shaping up to take the fight to them, the whining starts.

arakis · 30 Jul 2010, 12:51 (Ref:2735772)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid09

The M3 is a sports-car, one of the most popular in the world.

And please, don't mention efforts like Spyker and Aston Martin. Yes, Porsche and Ferrari accept them because they are no threat to their dominance.

But as soon as someone is shaping up to take the fight to them, the whining starts.

no its a sportier saloon car, if you are putting porsches astons ferraris road cars in the same basket as the BMW, then why not include Peugeuts, fiats and TATA's as well.

Aston is preatty good in the LMS, and the Corvette as soon as they get their act together they are a proper gt2 competitor, and I am preaty sure no amount of whining by porsche or ferrari will trow the corvette away,

As for the porsche and ferrari leading the gt2 class, it is only natural, it took ferrari 4 years, and a 2 race cars to relenqush posche dominace of the class, what did you aexpect anyone was going to just walce and be as competitive right away, it migh not take 4 years but its not gona happen right away,

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 12:55 (Ref:2735774)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

no its a sportier saloon car, if you are putting porsches astons ferraris road cars in the same basket as the BMW, then why not include Peugeuts, fiats and TATA's as well.

Does Peugeot, Fiat and Tata sell road cars with high-performance V8 engines? No!

Do they sell road cars that match your beloved Porsches and Ferraris on tracks like the Nordschleife? No!

The BMW M3 is a sports car, and a damn good one too. I don't expect you to acknowledge that but we both know it's true.

arakis · 30 Jul 2010, 13:02 (Ref:2735777)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid09

Does Peugeot, Fiat and Tata sell road cars with high-performance V8 engines? No!

Do they sell road cars that match your beloved Porsches and Ferraris on tracks like the Nordschleife? No!

The BMW M3 is a sports car, and a damn good one too. I don't expect you to acknowledge that but we both know it's true.

E92 BMW time on the NBR is 8:05, with is not comparable with the 7:39 430 Scuderia, or the 7:33 997 gt3 RS. not even with the 7:50 of the 430(witch was a crapy lap)

its a hyped up saloon, I am sorry but that is how i feel, and it will never be in the same class as Ferrar, Porsche, Aston Martin,etc... and it shouldn't be racing in gt2! but this is getting out of hand, lets agree to disagree

Spyderman · 30 Jul 2010, 13:51 (Ref:2735792)

It's not often that I find myself agreeing with Arakis, but .....
It is not just the transaxle gearbox ; the whole engine has been pushed back from its original position.

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 14:31 (Ref:2735808)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

It's not often that I find myself agreeing with Arakis, but .....
It is not just the transaxle gearbox ; the whole engine has been pushed back from its original position.

So? Does that lead to an advantage on track? Obviously not..

Spyderman · 30 Jul 2010, 14:46 (Ref:2735818)

..so why do you think they did it for? Entertainment?

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 14:51 (Ref:2735821)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

..so why do you think they did it for? Entertainment?

It was obviously needed to make the car competitive, I´m talking about advantages in relations to the competition.

Does BMW have an on-track advantage over Ferrari and Porsche? It's quite the contrary, they were without a chance at Le Mans so I really don't see any reason for the competitors to complain.

If anything, BMW has to complain because the car has been restricted to the point of being majorly underpowered (Le Mans)...

Spyderman · 30 Jul 2010, 14:55 (Ref:2735824)

...so you wouldn't object if Porsche were allowed to push their engine forwards a couple of feet then?

arakis · 30 Jul 2010, 15:04 (Ref:2735830)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid09

It was obviously needed to make the car competitive, I´m talking about advantages in relations to the competition.

Does BMW have an on-track advantage over Ferrari and Porsche? It's quite the contrary, they were without a chance at Le Mans so I really don't see any reason for the competitors to complain.

If anything, BMW has to complain because the car has been restricted to the point of being majorly underpowered (Le Mans)...

1. it was not restricted at le mans, it had larger restrictors then ferrari and porsche had for the same 4.0l size engines, they had smaller restrictors in relation to alms, where they have a huge restrictor beak, it might be smaller then alms but it was still bigger then ferrari and porsche had at Le Mans.

And yes it does give a big addvantige to the bmw, it is hurting porshe and ferraris image to be assosiated with bmw m3, while it gains image for the bmw.

the point is not weather the gearbox and engine give an advantige over porsche and ferrari, the point is that it gives an advantige over the original bmw m3, witch is what should be raced!

Again the rules are set for Privateers to race cars that closly match their street counterparts, and the bmw m3 gtr doesn't closly match the rad car, nor is it sold or raced by privateer teams.

last i read the BMWs in the ALMS are using 29.4 restictors on their 4l engine http://www.imsaracing.net/2009/alms/...ms%2009-11.pdf

while porsche and ferrari use the 28,6 restrictor, just to clarify the 29.4mm should be used for a 3.2l engine to make the same power as the 4l, in the rule book that is

HORNDAWG · 30 Jul 2010, 15:11 (Ref:2735833)

If they wish to build a mid engine car instead of a rear engined car, then no. If I remember correctly, the engine has already been moved in the Porsche. Which caused problems with the transaxle that had to be worked through.

L.P.

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 15:14 (Ref:2735835)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

And yes it does give a big addvantige to the bmw, it is hurting porshe and ferraris image to be assosiated with bmw m3, while it gains image for the bmw.

Wow, you managed to capture the essence of the Ferrari & Porsche arrogance in one sentence - Nice.

That's exactly what I mean, Porsche and Ferrari somehow think they own GT2 racing and that's the reason for their constant whining and complaining about the BMW.

@Spyderman

Of course not, as long as it dosen't hurt the on-track balance between the competitors.

I always thought we all want to see close and exciting sports car racing with as much variety as possible. But I guess some people rather jerk off to the thought of their make being superior over others who don't even have the right to be in the same class yet alone challenge them.

arakis · 30 Jul 2010, 15:22 (Ref:2735839)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid09

I always thought we all want to see close and exciting sports car racing with as much variety as possible. But I guess some people rather jerk off to the thought of their make being superior over others who don't even have the right to be in the same class yet alone challenge them.

Ok the core of this argumet comes to the sentence above, I think of the gt2 as a mini LMP1 class, not in the esence of the protoypes but in the esence, that as the rules are set, different makes build their cars to the rules and we wathc with manufacturer makes the best car!

you are of the oppinion we should eqate everyone and watch the show!

But, just like lmp1 I want a manufacturer to win because of their engeneering skils and knowlige, not because the ACO/FIA arificialy balanced the results. we have GT3 for that

Fact of life is, some manuffacturers are better then others and those that are should win, and should not need the rules twisted in their favor. I don't watch gt2 to look at preaty cars I watch it because in esence IMHO its the peak of racing engeneering aplied to road cars

HORNDAWG · 30 Jul 2010, 15:25 (Ref:2735840)

As to the M3, it is a 2+2, which is within the rules and has been excepted by the ACO as a legitimate car for the class, period. The ACO's rules also state that the ACO has the authority and will make adjustments within the rules to create a base from which the cars can be competitive with each other. It is what it is and it is fairly well balanced as witnessed by the competition in GT-2. IMO having a 4th major mfg in the hunt is nothing but good!

Sorry for hijacking the Spa 24hr thread! hopefully it will return to subject matter now.

L.P.

arakis · 30 Jul 2010, 15:32 (Ref:2735847)

Exacly, there is a rule book for some, and then there are additional points within the rule book stating the ACO/FIA have the right to trow the rule book out the window and more or less alow anyone to compette anyway they like!

If you want to be a stcker for legality, it is bMW M3 is a fully leagal gt2 car, but the rules aplied to it are different then the rules aplied to other competitors, and you have to agree with that!

exsample: while Porsche,Ferrari, Corvette, Aston have to use restrictor as stated by the apendix of the rule book, the bmw can use a larger one.
while the Manuf stated above, are not alowed to move their engies around, or change the drivetrain, the BMW is alowed to. Yeah it's fully legit, but its unfair, and all the bad press the BMW is getting is fully deserved

I don't mind having 25 different mauffacturers fighting for the wins in gt2, as long as they are all built to the same set of rules without aplying FIA/ACO discretion of meddaling.

And before I get linched again for stating my oppinion, I have said all i have to say about this multiple times, so i am gonna stop here!

HORNDAWG · 30 Jul 2010, 15:38 (Ref:2735849)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

Exacly, there is a rule book for some, and then there are additional points within the rule book stating the ACO/FIA have the right to trow the rule book out the window and more or less alow anyone to compette anyway they like!

If you want to be a stcker for legality, it is bMW M3 is a fully leagal gt2 car, but the rules aplied to it are different then the rules aplied to other competitors, and you have to agree with that!

I don't mind having 25 different mauffacturers fighting for the wins in gt2, as long as they are all built to the same set of rules without aplying FIA/ACO discretion of meddaling,

They are all built to the same set of rules, but, they are not built with cookie cutters and therefore the ACO steps in. If it is so frakking hard to except something that has been going on forever, then maybe it is time to move on..... This is not one make series racing!

L.P.

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 15:39 (Ref:2735850)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

But, just like lmp1 I want a manufacturer to win because of their engeneering skils and knowlige, not because the ACO/FIA arificialy balanced the results. we have GT3 for that

Ahh yes, and because you value engineering and knowledge so much you want the most sophisticated car in its class to be kicked out.

You´re making a whole lot of sense here. You can't have it both ways...

NightStalk3r · 30 Jul 2010, 15:42 (Ref:2735852)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid09

So? Does that lead to an advantage on track? Obviously not..

Of course it does, if they hadn't moved the engine back they would not have there 50:50 weight distribution they boast about so much, an arguably would not be as competitive as they currently are in ALMS spec.

Acid09 · 30 Jul 2010, 15:44 (Ref:2735854)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Of course it does, if they hadn't moved the engine back they would not have there 50:50 weight distribution they boast about so much, an arguably would not be as competitive as they currently are in ALMS spec.

They haven't won a single race this year so they´re obviously not more competitive than others.. I still fail to see the problem.

arakis · 30 Jul 2010, 15:50 (Ref:2735858)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid09

Ahh yes, and because you value engineering and knowledge so much you want the most sophisticated car in its class to be kicked out.

You´re making a whole lot of sense here. You can't have it both ways...

BMW m3 is not the most sophisticated road car, so why should it be the most sophisticated race car, in a class of road car racers

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