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Old 5 Feb 2008, 18:09 (Ref:2121822)   #1
sssssssss
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sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Road supercars vs. race supercars

I'm quite confused as far as the main principle that makes a racecar so much faster than a road car is concerned. Which are the main factors that make the racecar lap a track so much quicker than a roadcar? For instance, you'd expect a car like the Bugatti Veyron, with its 1001 hp and 407 km/h top speed, to be comparable to an LMP1 car, or at least to a 1995-1998 era GT1. But if you compare its times on let's say Nordschleife to that of a Porsche 956 of the 1980's, it's 1 min 30 sec slower! Why is that? Because if you compare the performance statistics, the Veyron seems to beat many racecars: 1001 hp, even with 1800 kilos, is comparable to 600 hp at 900 kilos. And it's not just about the Veyron, it's about the whole elite bunch of road sportscars. This was just an example.
For a while I thought the acceleration might be the main factor, but the LMP1's don't reach 100 km/h in less than 2.5 seconds... I guess the Ferrari 333SP was declared to hit 100 km/h in about 3.1 seconds, from 0 km/h.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 18:14 (Ref:2121827)   #2
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
There are more things then just HP and TOP speed that go into making a sports car, let alone a super car.

Look at the Circuit LaSarth. P1 cars are allowed to run down to 3:30 per lap, no faster. With top speeds just under 200+/- mph on the straights. Several years ago 240-260 mph was realistic, but rules and safety ( plus chicanes) slowed the P1 cars down
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 18:18 (Ref:2121832)   #3
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Dani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
a 360 NGT is quite a bit faster on fiorano than an enzo.. that's the difference between racecars and supercars
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 18:58 (Ref:2121861)   #4
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it's obvious that there is a great difference... the question is what is it, actually, if not pure statistical performance (top speed, hp etc)?
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 19:02 (Ref:2121862)   #5
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Dani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
tyres is a big difference .. so braking cornering mostly
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 19:17 (Ref:2121873)   #6
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tyres is a big difference .. so braking cornering mostly
Aerodynamics must make a big difference as well- I don't know the comparitive figures, but I'll bet a modern LMP or most Group C cars are producing a fair amount more downforce than something like the Veyron- as you said, braking and handling are the big differences
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 19:23 (Ref:2121878)   #7
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it's obvious that there is a great difference... the question is what is it, actually, if not pure statistical performance (top speed, hp etc)?
I'm no engineer, but top speed isn't the only crucial factor in lap times. Compared to the Veyron, an LMP is lighter, with better brakes and aerodynamics, so it's cornering speeds and performance under braking will be much higher. Basically, even though the Veyron might be able to stay with or even outdrag an LMP in a straight line, at the first sign of a corner, the LMP can brake much later and carry far more speed into the corner- round a circuit with a number of corners, that'll translate into a big lap time advantage
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 19:28 (Ref:2121882)   #8
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Top speed is irrelevant if the car can't brake and handle corners quickly. The Veyron would feel like a truck in the corners compared to an LMP1.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 19:29 (Ref:2121883)   #9
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yap, those look like pretty good answers!
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 20:25 (Ref:2121921)   #10
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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For a while I thought the acceleration might be the main factor, but the LMP1's don't reach 100 km/h in less than 2.5 seconds... I guess the Ferrari 333SP was declared to hit 100 km/h in about 3.1 seconds, from 0 km/h.
Acceleration is a major factor, but not from zero, you'll just spin the wheels.

Coming out of a corner you'll see something like an R10 make mincemeat of a GT1 car, which itself is massively quicker around a lap than it's supercar equivalent.

This is a good comparison:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufQxcsHlMnQ

DBR9 10 seconds a lap quicker than an MC12 road car over a short lap.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 20:39 (Ref:2121934)   #11
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by AU N EGL
Look at the Circuit LaSarth. P1 cars are allowed to run down to 3:30 per lap, no faster. With top speeds just under 200+/- mph on the straights. Several years ago 240-260 mph was realistic, but rules and safety ( plus chicanes) slowed the P1 cars down
But again it depends what you mean by 'slowed'.

The Group C Nissan in 1990 did a 3.27 in qualifying with 1200bhp, but was running 3.35-40 race pace.

The R10/908 with 700bhp ran 3.26 qualifying and 3.26-3.35 race pace.

The fastest ever qualifying lap was a 3.21 by a Peugeot 905 in '92 (way quicker than even the Toyota TS010), but during the race it again was running 3.32-3.40 laps.
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 20:46 (Ref:2121938)   #12
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theres a massive difference......

aero, suspension, tyres, set up.

what make a race car fast?
tyres
suspesion
aero
engine

in that order....

just because you have 1000hp doesnt mean a 240hp exige cant show you the way around the track
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 21:34 (Ref:2121973)   #13
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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But again it depends what you mean by 'slowed'.
Exactly correct.

The last 2 minuet on the clock of the Super Bowl really takes 15 mins
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 22:50 (Ref:2122020)   #14
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Originally Posted by Zurbert82
Top speed is irrelevant if the car can't brake and handle corners quickly. The Veyron would feel like a truck in the corners compared to an LMP1.
This was demonstrated by top gear some while ago showing that cars with higher top speed.

They used
  • Vectra VXR
  • Mondeo ST220
  • Mazda 6 MSP
The vauxhall was the quickest in a straight but around the track the mazda was quicker by about 3 seconds(IIRC)
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Old 5 Feb 2008, 23:57 (Ref:2122062)   #15
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From a comparison of GT3 RSR and Carrera GT by Road and Track:

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Where did all that time come from? Race car vs. street car, that's where. (...) As Patrick (Long, Porsche factory driver) pointed out; "Remember, this RSR is built for the track. (...) It's been dialed in for two years. The Carrera GT is the way it comes off the showroom floor, set up for a wide array of drivers and driving conditions. It's impressive that we've gotten this close with the CGT" Our VBOX on-track data bears this out. Both cars accelerate at the same rate, brake at nearly the same rate (the RSR has a slight edge), but the race car's superior overall grip translates into better performance in the corners. With its sticky racing tyres, less pitch-sensitive chassis and rear-engine layout, the RSR allows the driver to carry more speed entering turns and to get back on the throttle earlier exiting them. This produces higher corner speeds, a better launch out of turns and higher terminal verlocities on the straights. Multiply that by 10 turns on a 1,5 mile course and there's your 9 seconds.

Give the GT more mechanical grip and the story could have turned out quite differently. (...) Long was confident the Carrera GT could give the RSR a run for its money. "You lower that thing down, put a set of slicks on it and and set the chassis for more of a race trim - no material replacements other than the tyres - and on a little bigger track, you're gonna have a pretty serious fight."
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Old 6 Feb 2008, 03:20 (Ref:2122134)   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Revhead
theres
suspension, tyres, set up.
This is why chassis men, and drivers who really knew what made a car work, used to be so highly desired compared to others.
They could function as a sort of unit, there was no fumbling disconnect between members.
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Old 6 Feb 2008, 07:26 (Ref:2122185)   #17
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Tires, aerodynamics, brakes. The first two are the main difference between super cars and race cars. Race cars come with slicks that are only used for an hour or so, even supercar tires will last you 5,000 miles (not on a race track)

Aerodynamics, almost all very fast cars still generate lift at high speed. The best ones (like the Veyron) make some downforce at speed. On a road car you will max out at about 1 g of grip on a skidpad. Race cars such as the Aston Martin GT1 generate about 1.15 gs on a skidpad, but that's at 40 miles per hour. At speed they are good for 2.5 Gs, while a supercar is far, far behind. Stuff like special gearing contributes as well.

Of course even supercars are designed to run for a long time and not a couple of races, so there is a lot of insulation and other stuff that adds on weight.

BTW, the Veyron is a luxury speed rocket. There is a lot of unecessary weight that you can remove if you wished to race it.

Last edited by chewymonster; 6 Feb 2008 at 07:28.
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Old 6 Feb 2008, 17:58 (Ref:2122628)   #18
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You might be interested in this article from Road and Track published in April 2006. It pits the Petersen/White Lightning Porsche against Mike Petersen's Carrera GT with Patrick Long doing the driving. Link
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Old 7 Feb 2008, 11:42 (Ref:2123193)   #19
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Yes, it was indeed interesting! Thanks! So a road car in the class of the Carrera GT would be significantly slower even than the GT2 category, not to mention GT1s or LMPs. I wonder if that stays that way for Le Mans too, considering the huge straights of the French circuit. The GT2s hit their peak speed on the Mulsanne at about 290 km/h, I guess a Carrera GT (or a Bugatti Veyron) would beat that. But still, on an overall lap time, I guess they'd get beaten even by the GT2s and certainly by the GT1s.
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Old 7 Feb 2008, 17:15 (Ref:2123373)   #20
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
For the most part Supercars are built for wealthy consumers, not really to race.
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Old 8 Feb 2008, 14:59 (Ref:2124172)   #21
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For the most part Supercars are built for wealthy consumers, not really to race.
yeah that's right! although they're also built for manufacturers to have a bit of a "force parade", so the cars should really be good (and i think a mclaren f1 lm, derived from a racecar, or a mercedes clk-gtr, also derived from a racecar, are quite competitive on circuits - not as competitive as their race counterparts, but i guess more competitive than a porshche gt2).

however, this way, paradoxally, the road supercars actually become a lot more dangerous than racecars... i mean, all these inherent characteristics of the racecars (especially downforce etc.), plus the permanent changes of the regulations in safety directions really put a race pilot in a much more secure position than a normal driver in a high-performance car.
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Old 8 Feb 2008, 15:01 (Ref:2124173)   #22
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so ultimately what's the big idea behind all of these safety measures of the fia?? the racecars are anyway much safer than those sold to the large public...
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Old 8 Feb 2008, 15:13 (Ref:2124180)   #23
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so ultimately what's the big idea behind all of these safety measures of the fia?? the racecars are anyway much safer than those sold to the large public...
Hell YES.

a roll cage is much stronger then a cars body structure. But road going cars with air bags helps saves lives by softening the blow of an impact.

However, even with a roll cage, race seat and 6-point harness, helmet with HANS, a 200 kpm impact is going to hurt like heck if not move internal body parts and rip them apart as the drivers body stays in firmly in place belted into the race seat. This might be why we see race car drivers TRY to spin or graze a hard object vs smashing into it directly. Grazing or glancing blows defects or redirects the energy of that crash.
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Old 8 Feb 2008, 15:20 (Ref:2124184)   #24
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interesting point there. and of course, the racecars are driven at their maximum at all times, on the other hand, the race drivers have a much greater experience than everyday rich people who buy a bugatti or a mclaren.
still, i see no real safety point in reducing the racecars performance - ultimately, what's the big difference between a 350-380 km/h impact versus a 320-340 km/h? i guess a 330 km/h hit is more than enough for serious trouble, if that's the case.
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Old 9 Feb 2008, 07:16 (Ref:2124695)   #25
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An Acura ARX-01b was able to take Turn 1 at Sebring flat. That's a result of mechanical grip (suspension and tires), and aerodynamic downforce. No street car could do that, regardless of horsepower or any other routinely used "statistical" measures of performance or characteristics.
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