Question to the FIA re Ferrari Investigation

[Casper]

F1 as a whole has to accept the blame for this because they all agreed to the hybrid PU which is stupidly complex and anything that is complex to begin with was always going to be hard to technically police and ensure no one got too clever. A simple OHV V8 with a carby and a distributor would have avoided all these shennanigans in the first place.

Seriously, I cannot begin to understand how a complex technical item such as the F1 PU can be inspected for legality and it is pretty damned obvious that the requirement in the regulations stating that teams must ensure the legality of the car is there for that reason. This is basically a self reporting system I guess to ensure that the scrutineering for each car takes less than a month to do at each race. They most probably check the weight and make sure it has four wheels to prevent anyone doing a Tyrrell.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

F1 as a whole has to accept the blame for this because they all agreed to the hybrid PU which is stupidly complex and anything that is complex to begin with was always going to be hard to technically police and ensure no one got too clever. A simple OHV V8 with a carby and a distributor would have avoided all these shennanigans in the first place.

Seriously, I cannot begin to understand how a complex technical item such as the F1 PU can be inspected for legality and it is pretty damned obvious that the requirement in the regulations stating that teams must ensure the legality of the car is there for that reason. This is basically a self reporting system I guess to ensure that the scrutineering for each car takes less than a month to do at each race. They most probably check the weight and make sure it has four wheels to prevent anyone doing a Tyrrell.

They should start stripping the things after qualifying, see how many of them get them back together by the race. Thought winning was also part of taking it home in boxes! Ah, the good old days!

Start open inspections, everybody can stand around and watch!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

They should start stripping the things after qualifying, see how many of them get them back together by the race. Thought winning was also part of taking it home in boxes! Ah, the good old days!

Start open inspections, everybody can stand around and watch!

yes, it is a totally ridiculous state of affairs, regulate for technology that can't possibly be reviewed and checked at the track.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

yes, it is a totally ridiculous state of affairs, regulate for technology that can't possibly be reviewed and checked at the track.

A closed shop.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Casper

Seriously, I cannot begin to understand how a complex technical item such as the F1 PU can be inspected for legality and it is pretty damned obvious that the requirement in the regulations stating that teams must ensure the legality of the car is there for that reason. This is basically a self reporting system I guess to ensure that the scrutineering for each car takes less than a month to do at each race. They most probably check the weight and make sure it has four wheels to prevent anyone doing a Tyrrell.

playing devils advocate here a bit...

if it is self reporting then who is to say that all the teams are not pushing the envelope. i think all of us would suspect all teams of either having done this or at some point will do this.

from there, where does one draw the line between pushing the envelope and outright cheating?

i dont think any team formally questioned what Ferrari was doing (i could be wrong there) but the FIA did start an investigation and, based on Ferrari's drop off in performance, the FIA's starting the process was enough to get Ferrari to stop (allegedly) doing whatever it was that they were doing.

so it seems to me that the system/process worked exactly as intended.

of course some still believe what Ferrari did crossed over into outright cheating and i get that frustration (i really do) but short of settling champions in court rooms im not sure what the solution is.

as you say they could just require simpler cars...but even the teams upset with what Ferrari/FIA did here dont want simpler cars as they also benefit from this system of self reporting.

mind you, i dont know how much of this is the FIA's inability to match legal resources against entities like Ferrari or Merc...if they were generally just bullied into this settlement then obviously i would have to change my earlier assertion that the system worked as intended.

[Casper]

I think (with no proof) that the cheating if it did happen is not the issue, the issue is the lack of transparency in the report of the investigation. I could easily imagine that Ferrari might have leaned on the FIA to limit the reporting no matter what the report said for their own purposes which could be many but it is in the end all speculation without that transparency and a full reporting of the investigation. As I said earlier, any comments on the substance of what Ferrari may have done or not done is all hot air because we don't know. Comments on the collusion between Ferrari and the FIA, let's call it for what it really is, should be welcomed by us all.

Essentially what has happened is that Ferrari have been found guilty in the fans eyes without any evidence at all apart from the performance of the car which showed strange patterns that the other teams had no explanation for but could not protest because they had no explanation or evidence. You can't protest because a car is simply quicker no matter what young Max V. might assert.

It also defies explanation that the drivers were not aware of why the cars were so much better at different times as well. If there was to be a proof of cheating publicly available the drivers should cop it in the neck as well they having colluded and agreed to drive the cars.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Casper

It also defies explanation that the drivers were not aware of why the cars were so much better at different times as well. If there was to be a proof of cheating publicly available the drivers should cop it in the neck as well they having colluded and agreed to drive the cars.

Now that would be a turn up!
Fancy an F1 Driver refusing to drive a car that was faster than the opposition.

Has anyone thought that there may be reasons for not disclosing confidential Intellectual Property? Maybe something that has difficulty in being securely patented.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Has anyone thought that there may be reasons for not disclosing confidential Intellectual Property? Maybe something that has difficulty in being securely patented.

That could well be one of the reasons Ferrari might lean on the FIA, one of a dozen or so I could think of. I doubt there has been so much unfounded BS written since the flex wing Red Bull episode.

[S griffin]

They obviously didn't cheat very well, they still finished a long way behind Merc

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

They obviously didn't cheat very well, they still finished a long way behind Merc

Strange how everybody seems to accept Merc as the standard of perfection and never ask any questions about their performance.

Waiting on tenterhooks for the finding that Merc have been doing something illegal for the past 6 seasons. Then what?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by wnut

Strange how everybody seems to accept Merc as the standard of perfection and never ask any questions about their performance.



Waiting on tenterhooks for the finding that Merc have been doing something illegal for the past 6 seasons. Then what?

If ANYONE else does it, it's not cheating it's pushing the envelope or exploiting a loophole. The second it's Ferrari it's always that the FIA looks the other way. Obviously as Ferrari doesn't win that much so there must be something else. And sorry, but ZERO evidence you could take any where near the regulator or court room has even been pondered here. It's 600 posts of nothing

[Casper]

Just consider for a moment that the NDA was a Ferrari initiative not the FIA's. Just another way of looking at it.

I like that if Ferrari are accused of something then MB MUST be cheating, it sure makes sense to me.

[Adam43]

Some people just always think the worst about Ferrari, others Mercedes.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Some people just always think the worst about Ferrari, others Mercedes.

Some people have their favourites, or not.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Some people just always think the worst about Ferrari, others Mercedes.

Originally Posted by Casper

Just consider for a moment that the NDA was a Ferrari initiative not the FIA's. Just another way of looking at it.

I like that if Ferrari are accused of something then MB MUST be cheating, it sure makes sense to me.

Exactly, see above. No one mentioned Mercedes most be cheating but that's the first reaction. No one suggested at all MB was but by all means change the story and pretend that's just suggesting it's another way to look at it. Plus it's ONLY in the FIA's interest for the NDA if they proposed it, if Ferrari wants it why would they agree. There's nothing for them to lose except face and the faith of the teams for zero gain.

But I can see the discussion has ended and the we must know every detail and boot Ferrari from the championship so I believe I'm done here.

[Zico]

What Ferrari may or may not have done is almost irrelevant, they just happen to be involved.

The problems I have are with the FIA, in that despite NDA's being part of what everyone signed up for... no other team in history has ever been afforded the same luxury.. no continuity whatsoever.

It seems there is a real conflict of interests with NDA's being a permissible tool to use when openness, fairness and transparency are a prerequisite for (any) sports governing body if F1 wants to at least attempt to be seen as a 'clean' sport. So, for me its the FIA themselves who have brought F1 into disrepute by being secretive/lacking any transparency.

Intellectual property disclosure has to be the main issue but I dont know what compromises could be made to find a balance between that and FIA transparency.

I guess they just have to go back to just doing what they did before?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Plus it's ONLY in the FIA's interest for the NDA if they proposed it, if Ferrari wants it why would they agree. There's nothing for them to lose except face and the faith of the teams for zero gain.

Apologies if I misunderstood your post. I actually am having a hard time following what you are trying to say in some of your recent posts.

Are you saying above, on the assumption that the NDA came about via Ferrari, that Ferrari have nothing to gain and all to loose by having the NDA in place? In that having it casts a shadow over them?

I can see little reason that the FIA would ask for an NDA and I can really only see Ferrari wanting one. And that they wanted one because the FIA was going to release some type of information. At a minimum it would be details as to "what" FIA suspected Ferrari were doing. Given how complex the cars are, some of those details might have included information on a non-suspect concept that Ferrari wishes to keep secret. As to why FIA would accept the NDA, for the reasons above Ferrari may be rightly claiming the FIA was going to expose confidential information without having proven any wrongdoing.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Mercedes has stepped away from further action over this matter. The decision comes after the main Daimler board considered that pursuing legal avenues would not be in the best interest of either the company or F1 overall.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Mercedes has stepped away from further action over this matter. The decision comes after the main Daimler board considered that pursuing legal avenues would not be in the best interest of either the company or F1 overall.

Methinks that is sensible in the current 'climate' considering there is no racing atm - Merc would probably want to drum up more beneficial PR up to keep the team in people's minds and for F1 in general to generate more positive news whilst there is such panic around the world.

[Casper]

The wheels of politics in F1 sure turn in some strange ways.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Mercedes has stepped away from further action over this matter. The decision comes after the main Daimler board considered that pursuing legal avenues would not be in the best interest of either the company or F1 overall.

also makes sense from a resource point of view...how much time and money do they want to spend fighting over a past season in which they already won both titles?

at some point there will be racing again and those resources are probably better spent fighting to defend Merc's next innovation or challenge what other teams are doing.

side question, but where will legal costs fall vis a vis the new budget cap?

i would assume its outside of the scope of the cap...in which case i would hate to see the big teams funnel money from what used to be the race team budget to their legal department's budget in an attempt to find a competitive advantage in the legal arena.

from this point of view, this FIA mechanism to summarily dismiss certain actions may be a positive. like wise, it could be a negative if the fear of protracted legal action makes the FIA more inclined to bury things on behalf of the rich teams do

[greentrumpet]

Perhaps there's a "quid pro quo" for one or more of their innovations?

[Adam43]

Or they just can’t be bothered or don’t think there is anything to gain.

Why invent something more convoluted?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Or they just can’t be bothered or don’t think there is anything to gain.

Why invent something more convoluted?

Yes this sounds entirely plausible as well. Bigger issues afoot than a continuation of a 'did they, didn't they' saga.

[E.B]

Perhaps a case of glass houses and stones given their own suspect devices that have attracted attention. viz. brake ducts and the DAS system, the latter of which Red Bull have said they would, had it have been used in Melbourne, have protested.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...des-das-system.