Are freelancers a dying breed

[BertMk2]

I happily buy photos from photographers at events we've done - providing they give me the digital image. That way it's far more use to me, I can use it in a number of ways (for example each year I select the best photos I've taken at events along with the best photos of our car taken by the pros and create a photobook of the years motorsport). But it's amazing how reluctant some photographers are to sell you the digital image - the argument being that you can use the image multiple times for prints, you could put it on your website and then it could be downloaded for free by anybody. Even if that did happen - it's still a sale and still more money than you'd get for not offering the digital image. At some events we could get images from spectators but at others the pros have a monopoly on photos (certain MOD sites won't allow any photography other than by specified individuals in specified areas and no on-board cameras), ideally I like to get images from each event we do but sometimes I've drawn a blank on getting the digital images and frankly I'm not paying silly money for a 6*4 print.

So - whilst life has undoubtedly got more difficult for the pros I think that in some cases they have also been slow to respond to the changes taking place around them, the market is still there, it's just not the same as it was twenty years ago so the photographers need to adapt.

[grantp]

Retrognome started out looking at th Freelancer to Magazine relationship but I think that was always one where the Mags might provide some core revenue and a place to 'advertise' oneself in the hope (or expectation) of making some additional income from businesses seeing the work and wanting to use images or arrange a dedicated shoot. And then there was the potential for individuals to ask for their own copies of the snaps at higher quality or just larger than the magazines could produce.

With the magazines out of that financial supporting role for most freelancers the model changes, certainly, but to what? Competitors (and their teams ?) may be interested but there is no guarantee and expectations are variable. Even the sort of shot that people prefer varies enormously - or so it seems.

BertMk2 might be willing to indicate what sort of amount he would be willing to pay for a digital file. My experience suggests that many just think all you have to do is press a button then copy their files onto a CD. A CD costs about 10p so paying a couple of quid would be quite generous. Well, if only life and the process were that simple. That said, IF (and that's a big IF) enough people were prepared to buy a disk on a similar basis I could see an 'almost a business' model that might just cover costs. I think the deal would have to be that 'social media' sized images were included, anything larger would be on a different charge scale. The reason being that at 'social media' sizes pretty much any half well exposed image will look acceptable so you could just ship the lot without bothering to look at them.

But that just moves the whole concept further towards a non-market with no obvious long term value added content on which to build client and supplier relationships. It's the modern way. Customer/Supplier 'churn'. A lot of furious peddling to stand still whilst the prospective passing client becomes ever more resistant to more and more people 'cold calling'.

Maybe.

I think perhaps midgetman's lad has the right answer.

Following Big Business's lead of what to do in a recession the answer seems to be to stick prices up (and likely offer less for the money in many cases). Seems to work for the 'Energy' companies, Financial Services and others, at least in the short term. I'm sure quite a few competitors would fully understand and applaud the idea as if it were their own. Which it probably has been.

[midgetman]

Alex gets it from his dad ;-)

OK I may be simplifying for semi-comic effect but he doesn't sell them for a couple of quid. He's studying the subject plus business studies so he can turn one of his hobbies into a business (given I can't pay for him to be a pro racing driver!). We do spend time seeing what others charge, but I wonder whether selling on price is important?

If you're selling the same widgets as everyone else, price comes into the equation. The pics I actually paid for when I was racing are truly different, from a perspective that only a pro could see, from a position only a pro could get to.

So to stop being a dying breed, find a compelling reason for customers to choose *your* overall/picture/widget. And I reckon that the photographer has a great chance by finding that special shot, and the price becomes less important. Get great pics, I'll pay good money. Get frankly ordinary pics, I'll not bother.

I've got a Q, to get to the best places e.g. La Source, do you have to be a pro of any kind? Alex is only 14 so clearly won't get there anyway!

IIRC the last pics of me racing I bought were at Dijon,2007, where the chap had printer and had pics of me ready almost before I finished the race! Filled with bonhomie and red wine, I spent far too much and we were both happy...I remember when I first started racing, we used to get tiny little contact prints through the post a week or so later, by which time the excitement had worn off and I didn't bother. Changing times have given us a great opportunity :-) I love this brave new world, its letting us all challenge the status quo.

[gary396]

Just a thought from me - and not being critical of any posts on here to date - but I don't recall seeing much mention of whether or not there is the 'right' to sell photos taken in / from public areas at a lot of meetings. MSV for one (I think) has the 'only for private' use printed on the tickets.

Even publishing them on Ten-Tenths (as I and many others do) may well infringe the circuit owners limitations albeit such PR is possibly good publicity for the circuits.

Having said that what propostion of 'freelancers' are actually accredited and/or have circuit permission?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by grantp

BertMk2 might be willing to indicate what sort of amount he would be willing to pay for a digital file. My experience suggests that many just think all you have to do is press a button then copy their files onto a CD. A CD costs about 10p so paying a couple of quid would be quite generous. Well, if only life and the process were that simple. That said, IF (and that's a big IF) enough people were prepared to buy a disk on a similar basis I could see an 'almost a business' model that might just cover costs. I think the deal would have to be that 'social media' sized images were included, anything larger would be on a different charge scale. The reason being that at 'social media' sizes pretty much any half well exposed image will look acceptable so you could just ship the lot without bothering to look at them.

I think the last cd of images I bought was £35 and there were over 20 full size digital images. I bought a similar number from another pro as well for roughly the same amount earlier in the year. "social media" sized images are no good to me (I don't do bookface).

[retrognome]

Its pretty obvious that if a circuit gives a photographer or reporter accreditation then the result is, those images and reports will find their way into the named magazine. Thats the agreement. I guess and although impossible to police, any member of the public looking to profit from their day is theoretically breaking the circuit code. Interesting a couple of my images showing a car rolling over were dismissed from a circuit open gallery as being in poor taste, even though the driver was unhurt. I have respected this. Would a non accredited photographer share that same relationship.

On the subject of imagination. What is the point in standing with a large group who are all taking the same pictures. Somewhere such as Spa offers huge opportunities, the sun can be shining at one corner with rain at the opposite end. And at the Nurburgring this year, because of the atrocious weather very few photographers, whether official or otherwise ventured out. They missed a great opportunity, what makes better drama than big beefy 60's/70's sports cars thundering almost unseen through the spray. it's all about being in the right place at the right time and planning in advance.

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>is theoretically breaking the circuit code

Interesting, but is it the law?Can it be enforced?

Also interesting is the fact that the circuit owners deem they have copyright on the pics. IMO if you're in the public areas you're in a "public place" and the subjects are in the public domain. You're certainly in a public place under the Road Traffic Act, which is why you can still be prosecuted for dangerous driving in the car parks. I reckon that's Circuit Greed putting up a smokescreen.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I think the last cd of images I bought was £35 and there were over 20 full size digital images. I bought a similar number from another pro as well for roughly the same amount earlier in the year. "social media" sized images are no good to me (I don't do bookface).

Interesting and thanks.

Web site usage sizes would come under my definition of 'social media'.

A few years ago I was invited to be the official photographer for a one day 'Historic Vehicle tour' type event. The start was at an interesting and potentially photogenic location that would be well suited to using my camera mast to get different to the usual angle shots. The organisers expected about 50 participants all eager for any shots available to record the day. They promoted the 'event photographer' both pre and post event on their newsletter for participants.

Seemed like a good day out and the people I met were fine, so off I went.

It was a glorious day. I took some background shots, set up the elevated kit and took elevated and ground level shots of all the cars departing and then packed up and moved to a location that offered another opportunity for an interesting shot as the cars passed through on the way back near the end of the run, though not all of them would be using that part of the route.

Then back to the start/finish, capture the Lancaster flying over and have something to eat.

It cost me a day and running costs for the car for about 120 miles. Then a few days to prep all the shots and group them by participant and so on. Popped them on the web site as promised with private access by user and password.

I went for a DVD data disk option (slightly too many files for a CD) offering all the shots at low res as a record of the event, the flyover shots and the individual participants' own folder containing both medium and high res shots of just them. All for £12.50 which included P&P and VAT.

As it turned out there were about 45 participants on the day some having travelled a long way to get there. Not exactly a budget conscious crowd.

I had one immediate email enquiry after the event - but they didn't followed up when the work was complete. Ultimately I had one further enquiry and shipped them a disk, personalised image printed on the disk too. 2 days later I got a phone call. The disk didn't work. I had checked it after burning so what had happened?

Turned out the chap didn't have a computer and was expected something he could play on his elderly DVD player. So I created a playable DVD (another day gone whilst I worked that one out) and sent him that disk. I assume that one worked as I heard no more.

And that was it.

It was a fun day and I considered doing the next year but as it turned out I would not have been able to make the date anyway. Not sure I could afford the continuing subsidies though.

Another chap was listed as covering the day but I never saw any reference to it on his website.

I often wondered if I should have offered a more expensive output. It would, after all, have made no difference to the net income had no-one ordered at all.

At the event finish, after I had arrived having waited to ensure any stragglers did not miss out at the second spot, on lady asked if I was going to provide prints there and then. So she was expecting to make an instant impulse purchase. Operating alone that would have been possible had I just covered the start although there was nowhere obvious at the location that I could have set up to do the work.

With a slef sufficient van and a team of helpers it might just have been possible to offer something as the event wound up and by the time people who had bothered to stay to the end were ready to leave. But I don't think such an 'Event' arrangement would have covered its costs on the day even if all the participants had purchased something. It might have been viable with twice the numbers - providing one was already operating a full event business that covered the initial setup costs.

Maybe the relative uniqueness of the images was not to taste or not unique enough.

It all reminds me of an old joke.

"How do you make a small fortune on the commodities market?"

--- "Start with a large fortune."

[ss_collins]

falling budgets from magazines as they fight a losing battle with the internet.

This is not really true - news lead magazines may have been hit but feature lead magazines are actually doing quite well. RCE has an increasing circulation for example.

Very few freelancers can, or could, make a decent living from pure editorial work, the secret is to find commercial sponsors & manufacturers with a PR budget and can give you a seasons contract, then you can add other sales for the icing on the cake. Obviously, if you are working for PR set ups, you need a professional set up and understanding of their needs (you get the phone call on Monday to go to a test session on Tuesday to shoot the new livery - no good saying "Can't go - I'm at work!"

agree

Also interesting is the fact that the circuit owners deem they have copyright on the pics. IMO if you're in the public areas you're in a "public place" and the subjects are in the public domain. You're certainly in a public place under the Road Traffic Act,

Yes I think they are private places - rather than public. You pay an entrance fee. As for the RTA are you 100% sure?

[backfire]

To reply to the last post, Racecar Engineering may be bucking the trend - that's great news, but, in my extensive experience, I still contend that many publishers are spending less and less on freelancers, especially the feature lead ones. With the advent of easier action photography (autofocus & digital), many are taking images from writers and paying very little over the word rate for a complete package.

The rights issue has always been a bit of a grey area. Strictly speaking, accreditation was only ever granted for press outlets, although PR and manufacturers media services get in as well. I'm afraid selling images to competitors has always been against the rules, in fact, the circuits could charge the photographers for running a commercial concession. In the old days this was often overlooked (especially if the said snapper gave the circuit a few free snaps for the programme). I don't know what the situation is these days.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by midgetman

IMO if you're in the public areas you're in a "public place" and the subjects are in the public domain. You're certainly in a public place under the Road Traffic Act, which is why you can still be prosecuted for dangerous driving in the car parks.

If you have to pay for admission are you still in a public area?

[retrognome]

I was warned about not wearing my seat belt at Dover docks the other day, driving between the check in and queue to board.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by retrognome

I was warned about not wearing my seat belt at Dover docks the other day, driving between the check in and queue to board.

That reminds me that there was a strong impression at an almost empty Portsmouth freight dock that if one even opened the door of the vehicle without wearing a correctly fastened hi-viz jacket the safety flying squad would pounce immediately. Some hours later, sitting watching the criss-crossing traffic as boats were loaded and unloaded in a stream of chaotic controls in the dark one wondered whether they had bigger problem to deal with.

On the other hand at Caen on the way back no one said a word and the infamous yellow jacket carrying requirement, so loved by the gendarmes, was non-existent.

Mind you the young ladies dealing with the check in and guiding the queues of waiting trucks lane by lane looked better, I suspect, in their orange jackets than they would in yellow. Maybe that had a localised influence on how to apply the rules - it being France and all.

[TerribleWone]

I think the current mess that is motorsport photography has a lot of issues at fault:

1. Influx of DSLR
2. Social media (free photos!)
3. Customers who value price points over quality
4. Editors with little to no artistic eye
5. Cheap Photo CDs
6. Limited interest/coverage/sponsors in racing
7. PS cameras make people believe taking photos is easy

At this point I think us photographers have priced ourselves out of a job. For what I would charge for a single original print there are four guys at the track offering a CD with every image they shot that weekend for a quarter of the price. I think people these days fail to realize the time and money that is required to be invest in taking a proper photo. For me the cost of getting to the track is almost trivial compared to the work load. On most race weekends I have to be at the track by about 6:00-6:30. This gives me time take car of registration and get my gear to the media centre before the 7:00am mandatory photo meeting. I will then spend the rest of the day running around the track getting photos of the team working, fans looking in at the cars, autograph sessions, tech talks, podium celebrations and press conferences. Most of the time I will have two bodies hanging from me with 3 pieces of pro glass and often a fire suit around my waste. Its a none stop rush from about 8:00am till about midnight trying to dump my cards and get those key photos in. Sure its not the same for smaller events such as vintage racing, but regardless the prep and post work is far greater than I think most people realize. Same is not true with the shoot and forget crowd selling that CD for 25 bucks. Good luck getting a sharp print from those guys at anything larger than a 4x3.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by retrognome

I was warned about not wearing my seat belt at Dover docks the other day, driving between the check in and queue to board.

Were you taking photos at the time?

The question was over circuits claiming copyright over any photos taken from the spectator areas. The requirements of the Road Traffic Act are completely irrelevant here.

[retrognome]

Everything now has to be 'instant, of course I blame mash potato! Seriously, it is the instant thing that gets in the way of quality. i cannot write a report instantly, I have to check results are final ( it's always the last race) and then my spelling before creating a document, selecting and adding images and sending home. During this time the media centre wants to close and the wifi dies. By now I'm knackered having been up since dawn and still have a ferry and maybe six hour drive before bed. Fact Is, my work has to appear on facebook, forums and in our own magazine by lunchtime Monday or it's history. Why bother with the English language, half the population can't even read!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by retrognome

Fact Is, my work has to appear on facebook, forums and in our own magazine by lunchtime Monday or it's history. Why bother with the English language, half the population can't even read!

Hmm.

Audio files? Or maybe some sort of Rap version?

After a recent local meeting I processed and packaged an range of shots of the event with some focus on a couple of notable local business people who had been racing. Added a few simple lines of description in the email as to why they might be of interest either for immediate use of perhaps for 'the library' and sent a zip file of smallish versions off to the local paper. Gratis of course. It's the only way they work.

Had this off to them by the middle of Monday afternoon knowing that they publish the non-football weekend sport stuff for Tuesday.

Got a mail back saying there were far too many choices for them (or in their speak - 'too many files to put in their system') and could I cut the number and add some comments to each one. And Tuesday would be OK 'cos the bloke who knows about motor sport will be back then.

So that told me that these would be 'library' shots and probably never appear anywhere.

I would 'happily' have processed any shots for which they has expressed an interest into whatever size they wanted ready for the Monday night print run. But clearly that was not going to happen and I had other things to do that, to me, took precedence over the activity they had requested.

It strikes me as being enough to supply the images for them to take or not as they choose. I'm not going to provide free copy too. Or at least not on a speculative basis and unless I better understand what they might be interested in.

Maybe I can do some further relationship building with them over the winter ready for next year and see what comes of that. Someone has obviously done that for the local bike racers - some of them get quite a lot of coverage. Hmm. Now there's a thought ....

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by redshoes

If you have to pay for admission are you still in a public area?

Yes, I've done a lot of work on this with one of my other jobs...not relevant for me to go into it here, but suffice to say the RTA does apply in race circuits or whatever. If you're desperately interested I'll PM you the details or you can start a new thread elsewhere and point me to it.

The relevance of the point is that if the law defines a race circuit, even if you have to pay admission, as a public place, then my contention would be that what happens there is in the public domain and not subject to the circuit's copyright.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by TerribleWone

Same is not true with the shoot and forget crowd selling that CD for 25 bucks. Good luck getting a sharp print from those guys at anything larger than a 4x3.

I think you're doing some of the pros a great disservice. The CD's I bought were both from pros, both include some amazing images and a sharp print could easily be had to A3 and beyond.

I also think you're right in so much as you have priced yourself out of the market - the same is not true of those pros that have adpated to the changing marketplace. Those that have stood still (such as yourself by the sound of it) will lose out. I sincerely believe there is still a market for decent photos taken by pros that know what they're doing. Pros have access to a lot more shooting positions (in some cases a monopoly on an event) and more importantly - the good pros have an eye for a shot. I know from my own photography that having a DSLR does not mean you can take good photos As for 'free images' from social media - yes, there are 'free images' but on the whole they're crap. Some wobbly image taken on someones phone through a fence is not going to touch the quality of a pros photo.

The days of selling a single print to a driver or crew may be gone but the possibilities with digital are endless.

[retrognome]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Were you taking photos at the time?

The question was over circuits claiming copyright over any photos taken from the spectator areas. The requirements of the Road Traffic Act are completely irrelevant here.

Sorry, got a bit carried away. It's the imagination kicking in!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Yes, I've done a lot of work on this with one of my other jobs...not relevant for me to go into it here, but suffice to say the RTA does apply in race circuits or whatever.

The relevance of the point is that if the law defines a race circuit, even if you have to pay admission, as a public place, then my contention would be that what happens there is in the public domain and not subject to the circuit's copyright.

The landowner has the right to impose conditions of entry. If one of those conditions is to restrict photography then he is perfectly within his right to do so.

The RTA may still apply, just as you could be arrested for another criminal act on private property, but that has no relevance here.

[Tim the Grey]

Just try selling any image of a National Trust property through an agency...
They sue.
Most 'property owners' now have photography restrictions. There was a famous case recently, where a guy took a snap on his phone of his kid eating an ice cream. That image was deleted because the shopping centre security demanded so. In the UK, reported in AP, among others.
If you are at a racing circuit, you are on PRIVATE land. It is NOT a public place.
There are next to no places I know of where you can see the track from a public place.

Having said that, I've known a lot of images get sold to teams or drivers, without anyone asking the circuit's say so...

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Just try selling any image of a National Trust property through an agency...
They sue.
Most 'property owners' now have photography restrictions. There was a famous case recently, where a guy took a snap on his phone of his kid eating an ice cream. That image was deleted because the shopping centre security demanded so. In the UK, reported in AP, among others.
If you are at a racing circuit, you are on PRIVATE land. It is NOT a public place.
There are next to no places I know of where you can see the track from a public place.

Having said that, I've known a lot of images get sold to teams or drivers, without anyone asking the circuit's say so...

And also to redshoes:

Oh, OK, you live and learn. Thanks for enlightening and somewhat depressing me! Best be careful in future then hadn't I?

[retrognome]

Freelancers who cover classic events generally speaking don't own a classic car and do not belong to a well known club. Or do they? I'm thinking VSCC or HSCC for example. Clubs who are highly active organisers present great opportunities and activly seek out qualified photographers to record events. This weekend for example VSCC are at Goodwood for their annual sprint. Over one hundred pre 1932 cars driven with verve at a classic race circuit. Terrific stuff.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

My son creates his own online magazine. He shoots the pictures, he writes, he edits, he designs. He has some help, but it's mostly him.
Seems pretty popular, and he's getting 'known' Media Side.
But thus far, I'd hate to think what state he'd be in if it was his only income...

No disrespect to your son and what he has achieved. But it just goes to prove that any Tom, Dick or Harry can setup a website and then expect Media accreditation.

And some, when they get trackside... haven't got a clue!

I bumped into a 'Photographer' at a track one day, he had his nice new shiny press pass round his neck. But he had no idea he had to sign-on to go trackside?!?

I am a full-time professional Photographer. I make money taking pictures. I make money taking Motorsport pictures.. I wouldn't make a living doing it. Because to so, as Mike Hoyer said you need to devote a lot of time to it.