[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

Isn't that what F1 is, among other things, about? Over 40 years ago people were bolting fans to the back of the cars just because it never said in the rules that was forbidden

It was an engine cooling fan you see.

[wnut]

Nice little bit of miss direction from Ross Brawn saying that we should not experience a similar level domination by Mercedes in this years' championship after Mercedes wins the first three races as Williams displayed in 1992 after it won the first three races of that season.

Would it be uncharitable to point out to Mr Brawn that similar domination to Williams levels in 1992 should be a relief following Mercedes' hybrid era form.

1992 Williams won 62% of the races and Mansell won 56% of the races.

2014 Mercedes won 84% of the GPs
2015 Mercedes won 84% of the GPs
2016 Mercedes won 90% of the GPs
2017 Mercedes won 60% of the GPs
2018 Mercedes won 52% of the GPs.

Are we trying to get out of pushing through meaningful rule change responsibility Mr Brawn?

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/no-fe...r-brawn-221562


Mercedes has won over 74% of the hybrid era GPs. Mansell won 56%(9/16) of the GPs in 1992, Lewis has won 51% (53/103) of the GPs in the last 5 years!

[S griffin]

Well I don't know what Ross is supposed to be achieving here, but that said I think it's early days to say Merc are dominating. Really Williams were lucky they had Mansell in their car in 92

I agree it was probably closer in 92, although it can all change these days

Williams won because they had the best car and Mansell was the best driver that season

2014 Merc clearly had the best car and they almost let it slip. 2015 it was all them. 2016 they managed to keep that dominance somehow. 2017 cracks were starting to show and they got a bit lucky in 2018

Really I'm surprised Merc have managed to stay on top, but that's the way teams can take advantage of slip ups from others. Lewis is lucky he has had such a good car the past few seasons

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well I don't know what Ross is supposed to be achieving here..

have to agree with this. short of going over to command the Ferrari pit wall again, im not sure what else Brawn can do to make things less of a one man/team show at the sharp end.

in the shallow end the sharks are fighting like crazy!

[loon]

just let merc run 20 cars and all problems are gone

[S griffin]

Don’t suppose they would be too keen on that and nor will the other teams

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

Nice little bit of miss direction from Ross Brawn saying that we should not experience a similar level domination by Mercedes in this years' championship after Mercedes wins the first three races as Williams displayed in 1992 after it won the first three races of that season.

Would it be uncharitable to point out to Mr Brawn that similar domination to Williams levels in 1992 should be a relief following Mercedes' hybrid era form.

1992 Williams won 62% of the races and Mansell won 56% of the races.

2014 Mercedes won 84% of the GPs
2015 Mercedes won 84% of the GPs
2016 Mercedes won 90% of the GPs
2017 Mercedes won 60% of the GPs
2018 Mercedes won 52% of the GPs.

Are we trying to get out of pushing through meaningful rule change responsibility Mr Brawn?

http://www.f1reader.com/#/news/no-fe...r-brawn-221562


Mercedes has won over 74% of the hybrid era GPs. Mansell won 56%(9/16) of the GPs in 1992, Lewis has won 51% (53/103) of the GPs in the last 5 years!

Those stats don’t demonstrate the whole picture either. I suppose neither naratives are served in the article and then the stats!

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/35143...s-in-1992.html

"It was down to a superior technical package in the era of active suspension, to the extent that Mansell brought home a further two wins before Ayrton Senna delivered one of his trademark miracle performances in Monaco, which momentarily interrupted an incredible run of wins," Brawn said in F1's official weekend debrief.

"However, despite the statistics being racked up by Mercedes, I don't believe that 2019 will follow the same script as '92. The three consecutive one-two finishes scored by Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas are definitely down to a team that is operating to perfection at the moment, with a top-notch technical package, but it's also fair to say it is up against stronger opposition that was Williams back in '92."

The domination in 1992 and the recent Mercedes domination are very different. 1992 Williams were much more dominant in pure speed. Recent Merc domination has come with almost bullet proof reliability and consistency, but much less of a speed advantage. In 1992 the six lost races were down to reliability, tyre problems and crashes. So from that point of view Brawn is right.

In the British GP Mansell was 2.7s quicker than the first non-Williams car of Senna! I very much doubt that we shall see that kind of domination this year.

I do however think that Mercedes will continue to be relentless and could well score another high proportion of wins to fuel your win ratio statistic. It is indeed domination.

As to why he said it? I don’t think Brawn penned it with some great ulterior motive and was desperate to try and make something fit his narrative. There was a stat that matches 1992 so worth a bit of history. He has to say something for the weekend brief I guess.

He’s added something that is way more relevant to the dominate again thread

[S griffin]

Well stats are useful. But there are slight differences between 92 and now. In 92 Williams had the best car and a fired up Nigel. Merc are up there because they make fewer mistakes. In 92 reliability is not what it is now and Merc are masters of it

[loon]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Don’t suppose they would be too keen on that and nor will the other teams

you don't say !!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Don’t suppose they would be too keen on that and nor will the other teams

Somehow, I just don't think it's going to happen (and nor did loon.....)

[S griffin]

We can always bring back the BMW M1 race concept!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by loon

you don't say !!

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Somehow, I just don't think it's going to happen (and nor did loon.....)

Originally Posted by S griffin

We can always bring back the BMW M1 race concept!

Whoosh!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by wnut

Mercedes has won over 74% of the hybrid era GPs.

What's the problem with that?

Mercedes are the best, so they deserve to win. They spent the money at the right time, on the right things, and deserve to reap the rewards of that.

I say that as a Red Bull fan who is cross with Mercedes for not supplying "Aston Martin" engines to Red Bull, but also a Honda fan who is delighted Honda ended up with Red Bull instead.

Five exquisite Mercedes Performance Powertrain F1 power units, 2014-2018.... wonderful stuff, don't you think? Truly the "best or nothing" as Mercedes proudly advertise!

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

What's the problem with that?

Well, one of the problems with that is that between 2014 and something like 2016 engine development was nearly banned. Somehow, most teams and factories agreed in advance to adopt such rules for 2014 season and later. I always thought it was a stupid idea, but everyone else thought this was going to somehow save the costs (NOT, 2014 and later customer engines became F1s most expensive in history). What happened next is that Mercedes clearly over-invested in its 2014 engine, but after that no one could fight back. It was only starting with 2017 and later, when the rules were loosened, that teams like Ferrari or Red Bull started challenging the silver arrows on a regular basis.

[wolfhound]

It seems like F1 is going to have standard brakes and wheel rims in the future.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/143070

By using standard brakes I wonder could longer braking distances be created making more overtaking possible?
Or is that just wishful thinking.

[ApexTurtle]

Doesn't Brembo make all brakes already anyway?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Mercedes are the best, so they deserve to win. They spent the money at the right time, on the right things, and deserve to reap the rewards of that

I completely agree. Everyone is building to the same rules and Ferrari & Red Bull have just as much money to spend.

Mercedes win because they are better. Better at engines, better at building cars, better at development, better at extracting the maximum from their designs, better at overcoming problems, better at race strategy, better drivers. Everything is just better.

Frustration at the domination this leads to is understandable but ire should be aimed at the ineptitude of other teams (or, to put it less harshly, their inability to do better). Being angry at Mercedes is like being angry with Eliud Kipchoge for being unbeatably brilliant at Marathon running or Lionel Messi for scoring an unfair number of goals. I prefer to celebrate and savour the brilliance on display from Mercedes every race weekend.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I completely agree. Everyone is building to the same rules and Ferrari & Red Bull have just as much money to spend.

So... three viable teams are good enough for the series? And as you say...everyone else is just inept? I guess that is one way of looking at it.

Richard

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So... three viable teams are good enough for the series? And as you say...everyone else is just inept? I guess that is one way of looking at it.

That isn't what I said. Only three teams have the necessary budget to compete for wins. Of those three, Mercedes is simply better than Red Bull and Ferrari. Those are two separate issues which tend to get conflated.

Issue #1: three teams spend so much more than the rest that no-one besides those three can complete for wins or even podiums. This is a problem the sport needs to sort out.

Issue #2: of the three big-spending teams, Mercedes dominates to an extraordinary extent. That isn't a problem created by the sport, it's a problem created by Mercedes and Red Bull/Ferrari's differing levels of competence.

These get conflated because #2 exacerbates #1. We'd be much less concerned about #1 if the three top teams were all on a par and duked it out race after race with six drivers all equally likely to win.

[S griffin]

I understand. Certainly Merc have got things sorted, Ferrari are slipping away and RBR are hanging on in there.

Merc have got a big budget and use it wisely, whereas Ferrari seem to throw it away. RBR are using what they can

Merc have got it all in their favour atm, before other teams catch up

It's unbelievable how dominant one team is. We need more teams up there, as it should be

[ApexTurtle]

The only reason Red Bull can't compete for wins is simply because Ferrari and Mercedes refuse to sell them engines.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

The only reason Red Bull can't compete for wins is simply because Ferrari and Mercedes refuse to sell them engines.

Agree, although I think from the 2nd half of the season that might not be the case anymore.

[ApexTurtle]

We've been hearing that from Honda for 4 years, I wouldn't hold my breath

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

We've been hearing that from Honda for 4 years, I wouldn't hold my breath

From my perspective Honda delivered everything they promissed the last 1.5 years.

Just a reminder, RB took out 10s from the lead on the medium tyres. Sure they don't have the peak performance of Mercedes or especially Ferrari, however I reckon there race average performance is already very close.

[ApexTurtle]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

From my perspective Honda delivered everything they promissed the last 1.5 years.

I think you missed quite a few of those promises then The Honda fanboys are invading everything it seems, wow!