How to fix F1?

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why was the Q2 Tyre rule brought in, in the first place?

It was brought in because, with the Q3 tyre rule (where drivers have to start on their Q3 tyre), some drivers would just stay in the garage in Q3 and start on new tyres. I don't know why the Q3 tyre rule was introduced in the first place.

[Adam43]

I think it was part of the parc ferme principle. You start the race with the car in the same state as in Q.

Remember when we also had the mad fuel rules too! That was a similar reason.

I think the potential to spice up the show was secondary to all that.

Thinking back, I remember before parc ferme there was morning warm up. I used to like that, especially when at a GP. Seeing them come out a tool round wetted the appetite. Also when it was shown on telly it was nice to have on in the morning over breakfast/coffee whatever. Made it more of an event. Although now we have 50 odd races a year a GP is less of an event anyway.

Moan, moan, the old days were always better - see I am a true motorsport aficionado.

[Plantagenet]

Has anybody else been watching the 'Watch Along' series on F1TV (and on Sky before that I believe)?
Most of the races are pre-2008 and you forget how small the cars were back then and how ragged they were. The current generation of massive super stable hybrids seem from a different world - as if they were aiming for LeMans!
The size is creating enormous downforce (with all the inherent issues discussed on this thread) and it seems contact is more prevalent now than it used to be because getting past is harder.

I have genuine sympathy for the powers that be to try and predict the best PU which seems an impossible task. But, getting them to simply reduce the size (and ergo weight) of the car would seem an easy step to improve the racing.

[S griffin]

I think people preferred wider cars with wider tyres so the contact patch would be higher, hence increasing mechanical grip.

[Adam43]

God how the fans moaned and moaned about the narrowing cars in 1998.

[Adam43]

I found some interesting view points in these threads on how to fix F1:

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...ghlight=Narrow

[S griffin]

Thankfully we got rid of those horrible grooved tyres and went back to proper slicks in 2009

[Kato]

I don't think that going slower is ever the answer that people following motorsport want to hear. Ever. It should be more about everyone going faster at the same time together. I don't want to pay my money to watch people going slower.

Perhaps we just keep everything the same but introduce Lewis to Elon and send him - Lewis I mean, heck maybe both of them - to Mars. So for those of us on Earth. F1 would be interesting again. With Lewis on sabbatical or, gardening leave, on Mars, does any right thinking person except that Australian cyclist think Valtteri has a snow balls chance in hell of winning the championship. Of cause not your Honour it was a rhetorical question.

So it could be anybody. My money, and his father's fortune, is on Lance Stroll. It is time to step forward into the light Lance - with all the StarWars bs that invokes...

[S griffin]

There was a quote by Gilles Villenueve during the ground effect era, something along the lines of 'the public wouldn't notice if we went 20 mph slower through the corners. It would probably mean they would slide more and the public would love to see that'

Again we go back to MotoGP. Nowhere near the speed of F1 cars, yet the bikes and riders always look on the limit and that is a better spectacle. For me F1 needs to be fast, but it doesn't have to be ridiculously fast. For me most of the speed should come in the straight line. It should be up to the drivers to take care of the corners, not the aerodynamics which increase speed round the corners.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

The current generation of massive super stable hybrids seem from a different world - as if they were aiming for LeMans!

Actually Le Mans cars are smaller. They were reduced to 1.8m wide in approx. 2016 IIRC, and they are also much shorter.

Originally Posted by Adam43

God how the fans moaned and moaned about the narrowing cars in 1998.

It was the wrong move for sure. F1 cars are supposed to be 2.15m wide , albeit they are also supposed to be 4.2m long not 5.8m long (which is ridiculous)...

It is a shame the maximum wheelbase regulation for 2022 was watered down (to 3500-3600mm instead of the original 3200mm proposal IIRC), as the teams complained about the "costs" of redesigning their 1m long gearbox housings.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Again we go back to MotoGP. Nowhere near the speed of F1 cars, yet the bikes and riders always look on the limit and that is a better spectacle. For me F1 needs to be fast, but it doesn't have to be ridiculously fast. For me most of the speed should come in the straight line. It should be up to the drivers to take care of the corners, not the aerodynamics which increase speed round the corners.

Don't you remember switching over to CART after watching Formula One? Despite the 1000hp of the CART racers, it was SO obvious that the CART cars were so much slower around the corners -- it was as if they were lumbering and in slow motion. (This 2004 Mexican CART race for example.)

A driver waiting, waiting, waiting to get his or her car with little lateral grip to finally make it round the corner, does not excitement make. The spectacle of the 2017+ era cars on maximum attack is quite something -- a welcome return to the excitement of the ~2004 era of fast F1 cars on maximum attack (albeit with a mediocre turbo hybrid sound).

To think in 2014-2015 it was considered "acceptable" to have cars lapping ten seconds per lap slower (!!!!!!) than in 2004... That was ridiculous.

Formula One itself, it’s not in great shape. We're disappointed with it. We all talk. All the drivers talk and we're disappointed where they’ve gone with the cars… the lap-times. They’re just not stimulating for the drivers and this is rubbing off.

- Mark Webber in 2015
https://www.bangkokpost.com/sports/5...at-state-of-f1

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It was the wrong move for sure. F1 cars are supposed to be 2.15m wide , albeit they are also supposed to be 4.2m long not 5.8m long (which is ridiculous)...

It is a shame the maximum wheelbase regulation for 2022 was watered down (to 3500-3600mm instead of the original 3200mm proposal IIRC), as the teams complained about the "costs" of redesigning their 1m long gearbox housings.

https://darhd0gh2uhgv.cloudfront.net...363c9-1920.jpg
https://i.redd.it/o7s426f2yfm31.jpg

One thing that is impressive is that teams have managed to make the cars longer and get the benefits there and been able to cope with the negative that gives you in the tight slow corners. Some good suspension work going on there which we don’t really get to see/understand.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Don't you remember switching over to CART after watching Formula One? Despite the 1000hp of the CART racers, it was SO obvious that the CART cars were so much slower around the corners -- it was as if they were lumbering and in slow motion. (This 2004 Mexican CART race for example.)

A driver waiting, waiting, waiting to get his or her car with little lateral grip to finally make it round the corner, does not excitement make. The spectacle of the 2017+ era cars on maximum attack is quite something -- a welcome return to the excitement of the ~2004 era of fast F1 cars on maximum attack (albeit with a mediocre turbo hybrid sound).

To think in 2014-2015 it was considered "acceptable" to have cars lapping ten seconds per lap slower (!!!!!!) than in 2004... That was ridiculous.


- Mark Webber in 2015
https://www.bangkokpost.com/sports/5...at-state-of-f1

That race was from the 2004 Champ Car season. CART filed for bankruptcy after the 2003 season had finished and was liquidated at a courtroom in Indianapolis on January 28, 2004.

Gerald Forsythe, Kevin Kalkhoven, and Paul Gentilozzi, purchased CART's liquidated assets and resurrected the series as, Bridgestone Presents the Champ Car World Series Powered by Ford; the Ford-Cosworth XFE, a 2.65 litre turbo V8 remained the sole engine. The 2004 model of the XFE had a rated power of nominal 750 HP.

[S griffin]

In it’s heyday Champ Cars was always more exciting than F1 and it’s a shame what happened to the series. The cars never had huge amounts of downforce, but they were fast enough and the only top single seater series at the time to produce good racing. For me I don’t care about the aero making cars go round corners faster. I’d much rather see drivers having to use their own skill in corners. Fact is F1 cars rely too much on the aero and it would be so much better if that downforce was cut. I don’t think it would matter too much the cars are slowed down a bit, the spectacle would improve

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Actually Le Mans cars are smaller. They were reduced to 1.8m wide in approx. 2016 IIRC, and they are also much shorter.




It was the wrong move for sure. F1 cars are supposed to be 2.15m wide , albeit they are also supposed to be 4.2m long not 5.8m long (which is ridiculous)...

It is a shame the maximum wheelbase regulation for 2022 was watered down (to 3500-3600mm instead of the original 3200mm proposal IIRC), as the teams complained about the "costs" of redesigning their 1m long gearbox housings.

They never should have narrowed them in 1998. That whole idea of fitting grooved tyres and narrowing the cars made them;

More unstable (unsafe?)
Used higher aero loads due to less drag
Had worse mechanical grip

It was basically the FIA's attempted sticking plaster for F1's increasing cornering speeds, which didnt really work as for 1999 they added another groove in the tyre, further reducing mechanical grip and to me a fundamental lack of understanding by the FIA of what makes good racing cars, either that or they was an ulterior motive. What they should have done, was to tackle the car's aero, however I imagine there was a lot of polical opposition to that.

I agree that the wheelbase now in modern cars is outrageous. They obviously dont want it reduced because that then reduces the size of the floor and they all love that floor for the added downforce, but I'd say tough to that, it needs to be decreased.
The upper surface portion of the floor now is approaching a flat panel, so they have loads of room to package a shorter wheelbase car.

F1 cars will always be fast in fast corners, where the current cars are not as quick is in the slow stuff and that is often where spectators can get closer to the cars as many fast corners either have no viewing or viewing from 300m away. What they should concentrate on is pace in slow speed corners, for a couple of reasons; increasing slow corner pace would have virtually no impact on driver safety, and secondly it would allow spectators to view the cars going quicker in closer proximity to viewing areas. One of the things that always blows me away from footage in the 90s is the speed of the cars through the slower corners, the direction change is fantastic to watch, however much of that has been eroded away now.

[S griffin]

Grooved tyres was one of the worst decisions in F1 and as you say it was a sticky plaster solution to a bigger problem. All it did was make teams increase aero, with mechanical grip having gone down. It was also ridiculous that all the other major single seater categories ran on slicks, while F1, the pinnacle, ran on those horrible grooves. So glad they are gone now, along with Traction control and refuelling

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Grooved tyres was one of the worst decisions in F1 and as you say it was a sticky plaster solution to a bigger problem. All it did was make teams increase aero, with mechanical grip having gone down. It was also ridiculous that all the other major single seater categories ran on slicks, while F1, the pinnacle, ran on those horrible grooves. So glad they are gone now, along with Traction control and refuelling

Who knows why these decisions were made. I dont have a doctorate in mechnaical engineering, but it doesn't take a PHD to know that removing mechanical grip in favour of aero grip is going to have a detrimental effect on the racing. Maybe there were forces at play which dictated the direction the regulations went in 1998, i'd like to think that it was a decision made through nessesity rather than incompetance.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Gerald Forsythe, Kevin Kalkhoven, and Paul Gentilozzi, purchased CART's liquidated assets and resurrected the series as, Bridgestone Presents the Champ Car World Series Powered by Ford; the Ford-Cosworth XFE, a 2.65 litre turbo V8 remained the sole engine. The 2004 model of the XFE had a rated power of nominal 750 HP.

Good point!

But even this golden era CART Surfer's Paradise race from 2000 when they still had 1000hp, makes it painfully obvious that the Champcars are really slow around corners at Surfers compared to Formula One at a similar place like Monaco: https://youtu.be/wC5gQwvEX5k?t=1380

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

All it did was make teams increase aero, with mechanical grip having gone down.

The teams would have increased aero grip anyway, it's what makes the cars go faster.

Frank Dernie, former Williams chief designer:

Back then we only had four people in the design office at Williams, so it was important to prioritise on what gave the most laptime. It soon became apparent to me that whatever you did with the suspension, the driver might prefer the feel, but it was rarely seen on the stopwatch. Whereas improving aero always gave more laptime. That's why I said to Frank and Patrick, we need to get our own wind tunnel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWRQDbB0EJU

To be precise, Dernie discovered this in 1975, so you can't expect the other F1 teams to unlearn this!

Nowadays, the teams can of course afford to do everything, and the Pirelli tyres are of course rather finicky and need plenty of coaxing, but even so, all the teams will still gladly compromise the suspension geometry in order to get an aero benefit!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

For me I don’t care about the aero making cars go round corners faster. I’d much rather see drivers having to use their own skill in corners.

That's not how it works. I don't see how you came to that conclusion.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Good point!

But even this golden era CART Surfer's Paradise race from 2000 when they still had 1000hp, makes it painfully obvious that the Champcars are really slow around corners at Surfers compared to Formula One at a similar place like Monaco: https://youtu.be/wC5gQwvEX5k?t=1380

Thanks for that, man I used to love CART and especially Paul Tracey. Great racing week in and week out.

[Peter Mallett]

It was ever the same. There was a vast difference between formula one cars and F5000 cars. Both exciting to watch but the F5000s didn't dance through corners as much as lumber through.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

That's not how it works. I don't see how you came to that conclusion.

Because it's a drivers championship and feel drivers still have a part to play, rather than the aero doing all the work?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Good point!

But even this golden era CART Surfer's Paradise race from 2000 when they still had 1000hp, makes it painfully obvious that the Champcars are really slow around corners at Surfers compared to Formula One at a similar place like Monaco: https://youtu.be/wC5gQwvEX5k?t=1380

I remember that race at Surfers. TV coverage never does justice to the speed the cars are doing, but they don't seem slow to me. In the mid '80s, F1 used 1000hp plus engines for qualifying, which would only last about four laps. IIRC the nearest CART got to a 1000hp engine, was the Ilmor pushrod Mercedes-Benz 500I, used by Penske for the 1994 Indy 500, which produced 1,024 hp at 9,800 rpm. By 2000 the engines were producing 800hp at 14,000 rpm. Also the car was heavier than the F1 cars of the time, weighing in at 770 kg/1700 lb with the driver, compared to 600 kg/1323 lb. Last year, the World Motor Sport Council agreed to up the minimum weight for Formula 1 cars to 746kg/1644.65 lb, excluding the driver.

[S griffin]

Of course with their heavier weight, they were going to be slower than F1 cars around road and street courses, but they weren’t that much slower. The more important thing was those CART cars with their ground effect and less upper body aero they could follow each other and race, which is what people come to see