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Old 15 Jul 2018, 08:53 (Ref:3836744)   #76
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Dear lord, so not thinking it's a good idea to throw drivers under a bus is white knighting.

Maybe it is a good idea actually. A thread full of armchair racing drivers who once held a PlayStation joypad, listing drivers who apparently aren't trying their best. In between their jobs in the corporate environment. It'll provide some people to laugh at, just not who the posters intended.
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Old 15 Jul 2018, 09:05 (Ref:3836747)   #77
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F1/GP Rejects did that to F1 Drivers and still does.
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Just because it happens, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Struggling to see the appeal of being negative in regards to a championship where most (if not all) of the drivers have to find the funds for their seat?

If they were getting paid to drive, then it might be different matter. BTCC is not F1.
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I agree with the sentiment; taking aim at those who tried and ultimately failed isn't a good or nice thing.
As a long-term poster on GP Rejects, I can categorically state that the above is simply not the case. The whole purpose of F1 Rejects (and indeed GP Rejects) was to shine a light on the plucky backmarkers, to tell stories that may otherwise remain untold.

The numerous driver and team profiles (which sadly went when the original site closed down in 2014) were always written from a respectful stance. I mean, if you took a cursory look at Alex Zanardi;s or Smokin' Jo Winkelhock's F1 results on Wikipedia, you'd come to the uninformed opinion that they were pretty crap F1 drivers. Their profiles were intended to show that actually they were great drivers, simply hampered by bad luck or poor machinery when they reached the pinnacle of motorsport.

Witness our celebrations when Jules Bianchi dragged that awful Marussia into the points in 2014, or when Pastor Maldonado of all people won the Spanish GP in 2012 (and also all the shade we threw at McLaren for throwing away an easy win by putting enough fuel in Hamilton's car )

If anything, it's underperforming top drivers that come in for the most stick on our forums and I think we can all agree that such criticism is deserved.

Hope that clears up some of the misconceptions on this thread.
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Old 15 Jul 2018, 12:23 (Ref:3836776)   #78
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As a long-term poster on GP Rejects, I can categorically state that the above is simply not the case. The whole purpose of F1 Rejects (and indeed GP Rejects) was to shine a light on the plucky backmarkers, to tell stories that may otherwise remain untold.

The numerous driver and team profiles (which sadly went when the original site closed down in 2014) were always written from a respectful stance. I mean, if you took a cursory look at Alex Zanardi;s or Smokin' Jo Winkelhock's F1 results on Wikipedia, you'd come to the uninformed opinion that they were pretty crap F1 drivers. Their profiles were intended to show that actually they were great drivers, simply hampered by bad luck or poor machinery when they reached the pinnacle of motorsport.

Witness our celebrations when Jules Bianchi dragged that awful Marussia into the points in 2014, or when Pastor Maldonado of all people won the Spanish GP in 2012 (and also all the shade we threw at McLaren for throwing away an easy win by putting enough fuel in Hamilton's car )

If anything, it's underperforming top drivers that come in for the most stick on our forums and I think we can all agree that such criticism is deserved.

Hope that clears up some of the misconceptions on this thread.
That's what I meant.
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Old 15 Jul 2018, 23:24 (Ref:3836868)   #79
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To be fair, all drivers have their reasons for bad results, so it’s not always clear cut who is the worse
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Old 15 Jul 2018, 23:45 (Ref:3836871)   #80
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medius should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmedius should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Surely if this thread were started in 2018 it'd never get beyond a two horse race?

Andy Neate or Mark Howard?
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 11:22 (Ref:3836914)   #81
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In fairness to Andy Neate he could get decent results... just not very often sadly. If he and the car gelled at a track he wasn't bad pace wise.

There were plenty of weekends where the gelling didn't happen, there where mistakes whilst trying to overtake and defend.

Mostly his teammates were more talented which no doubt added to his mental load in comparing his performance to theirs.

Andy's biggest problem as far as I'm concerned was the bluster and nonsense he spouted to the media. If he'd kept his head focussed on the task in hand he may have made more of his career and made a decent mid field runner (or not!)
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 12:25 (Ref:3836923)   #82
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 12:58 (Ref:3836927)   #83
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The whole purpose of F1 Rejects (and indeed GP Rejects) was to shine a light on the plucky backmarkers, to tell stories that may otherwise remain untold.
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That's what I meant.
So having established that the point of dragging up this rather bitter tasting thread was to 'shine a light on plucky backmarkers' and 'tell a story'...
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Richard Marsh
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How do these posts do either?

What story are we supposed to know about Griffin and Marsh - that is not just a negative criticism of their ability?
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 13:01 (Ref:3836928)   #84
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Andy Neate is getting a few mentions. This would presumably be the same Andy Neate who broke his neck in a terrible crash, was in a coma for 2 months, and sounds like he is lucky to have survived. He then had the Balls to not only get back into a racing car, but to compete at the top domestic level. The same guy who posted plenty of top 10 results in his time.

He should be in a category of the bravest BTCC driver, not the the worse.

Honestly, I thought this forum was better than this.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 13:09 (Ref:3836929)   #85
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Andy Neate is getting a few mentions. This would presumably be the same Andy Neate who broke his neck in a terrible crash, was in a coma for 2 months, and sounds like he is lucky to have survived. He then had the Balls to not only get back into a racing car, but to compete at the top domestic level. The same guy who posted plenty of top 10 results in his time.

He should be in a category of the bravest BTCC driver, not the the worse.

Honestly, I thought this forum was better than this.
I'm just getting tired of hearing about Andy Neate.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 13:28 (Ref:3836936)   #86
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There have been a lot of negative comments about 'Gentleman Drivers' 'propping up the back of the grid' and so on. As well as these guys (and girls) doing their best they are also 'living their dream'. If they want to compete in The BTCC, and can afford to do so, then why shouldn't they be there?
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 13:35 (Ref:3836937)   #87
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Maybe this thread should be closed...?
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 13:48 (Ref:3836939)   #88
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There have been a lot of negative comments about 'Gentleman Drivers' 'propping up the back of the grid' and so on. As well as these guys (and girls) doing their best they are also 'living their dream'. If they want to compete in The BTCC, and can afford to do so, then why shouldn't they be there?
Precisely.

And rather than a negative post purely naming a driver, or giving a reason of why they were crap. How about thinking of what they achieved?

Take, for example, John Thorne. A driver who does/has read what is posted here and has posted himself in the past.

As a driver, his results do not seem too impressive on paper. But does that mean he deserves to be included in the 'worst drivers' category? I would argue not.

His BTCC campaign came under the guise of what NGTC was being sold as, where a team and driver can find a car to start with, and build it to affordable (relatively) regulations which will then competitive. He brought us the Insignia to the grid, and showed us in very public manner how difficult it is to get a car running at the sharp end consistently.
His honest, and well mannered approach is something that should be admired - and ultimately can be seen as setting for the foundations of both the Team HARD, and title-winning BMR that we still see running today.

One of the pioneers of the early NGTC era, surely and example of why you should look beyond the results to determine their 'value' to BTCC?

Worst driver - only if you want to view BTCC with a negative mind-set and toxic views......
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 14:09 (Ref:3836941)   #89
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Under-performing would be less harsh than worst, just saying.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 14:14 (Ref:3836943)   #90
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Under-performing would be less harsh than worst, just saying.
Does that mean a change in thread title would reduce the negativity?
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 14:15 (Ref:3836944)   #91
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Does that mean a change in thread title would reduce the negativity?
Just a suggestion.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 16:27 (Ref:3836956)   #92
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Honestly, I thought this forum was better than this.
As did I.

This thread died once already. It is a dead thread, not just stunned, and not pining for the fjords.

It's unproductive (at best) so I reckon we should just leave it be.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 16:33 (Ref:3836961)   #93
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+1 for thread closure
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 18:04 (Ref:3836982)   #94
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I too think closure to be the best idea.

In life very few achieve the pinnacle. Let us celebrate those who tried, and ultimately fell short. Without them we wouldn't have competition, and without that no victors who achieved the pinnacle.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 19:03 (Ref:3836987)   #95
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Holy thread resurrection, Batman!
And an undeserved resurrection, IMO........
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 19:37 (Ref:3836991)   #96
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well .. should we close all threads that complain about williams and their drivers this year? .. we all know they're doing their best and i'm sure both Sirotkin and Stroll are living their dreams
Unfortunately .. for them .. they're not Lewis or Sebastian's level and it's nothing wrong with that

and dont forget Rowan .. we should be allowed to offend
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 20:47 (Ref:3837006)   #97
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And an undeserved resurrection, IMO........
Pardon my curiosity, deliberate slander was never my intention.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 21:00 (Ref:3837009)   #98
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Just a personal opinion.....
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 21:02 (Ref:3837011)   #99
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Just a personal opinion.....
Ditto.
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Old 16 Jul 2018, 21:04 (Ref:3837014)   #100
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well .. should we close all threads that complain about williams and their drivers this year? ..
Yes, probably.

IMO.

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