2010 Indianapolis 500

[JagtechOhio]

I'm seeing extended wing endplates, not a specific appendage to prevent contact with the fully exposed Swift rear wheel.

If a fairing or extension has been pictured in one of the Swift renderings, I missed it. The latest iteration of their rear wing endplates do not extend down to meet the bodywork. Look for the Swift #53, it has the curved wing endplates that they now claim will do the "Mushroom busting". There is no specific component in their design for this purpose, although it was rendered in their initial presentation in February.

Swift did not respond to messages which point out the absence or rear wheel protection, as I believe the IRL will consider it as an imperative feature.

MY MISTAKE: it's the Swift 66 that is the latest design, not 53.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I was referring to the rendering of the Swift with the appendages infront of the front wheels, that almost enclose them. However, to be fair both manufacturers want to be able to sell their creations so including or excluding nerf bars in their proposals is part of the marketing excercise.

If Lola don't get then I hope Swift do but not another Dallara. They've got really bad press at the mo because of the dog of a chassis they produced for HRT.

Pesonally, even if one chassis is selected I'd like to see that eventually opened up to multiple manufacturers, economics permitting.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If Lola don't get then I hope Swift do but not another Dallara. They've got really bad press at the mo because of the dog of a chassis they produced for HRT.

Pesonally, even if one chassis is selected I'd like to see that eventually opened up to multiple manufacturers, economics permitting.

I don't think it's fair to blame Dallara for the poor HRT chassis. The project had to be stopped numerous times as HRT failed to pay them, so it probably didn't have as much development time as the other new teams.

I agree it would be great to have multiple chassis, but i'm not sure ho likely that will be at the moment. At least if we can get multiple engines that ould be something, and the manufacturer involvement in that could see more money about, and also boost series interest, so maybe then multiple chassis will be possible.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by awrb

I don't think it's fair to blame Dallara for the poor HRT chassis. The project had to be stopped numerous times as HRT failed to pay them, so it probably didn't have as much development time as the other new teams.

I agree it would be great to have multiple chassis, but i'm not sure ho likely that will be at the moment. At least if we can get multiple engines that ould be something, and the manufacturer involvement in that could see more money about, and also boost series interest, so maybe then multiple chassis will be possible.

Dallara are the manufacturer of the chassis, so I would have thought it starts and ends with them. HRTs predicament highlights the problems with new teams entering F1 from scratch.

I'm not holding out for multiple chassis but I would like to see provision made for the inclusion of multiple chassis in the future, when the economic situation is allows it.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Dallara are the manufacturer of the chassis, so I would have thought it starts and ends with them. HRTs predicament highlights the problems with new teams entering F1 from scratch.

The problem wa that HRT didn't pay Dallara, so the project was forced to stop a number of times. I certainly don't think that car reflects Dallara's ability to build a good chassis. I still think the Lola is the best, but the IRL may feel endebted to Dallara after they've stuck with the series.

Of course, I'm still hoping for Dallara vs Lola vs Swift

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by awrb

The problem wa that HRT didn't pay Dallara, so the project was forced to stop a number of times. I certainly don't think that car reflects Dallara's ability to build a good chassis. I still think the Lola is the best, but the IRL may feel endebted to Dallara after they've stuck with the series.

Of course, I'm still hoping for Dallara vs Lola vs Swift

I don't know why the IRL should feel endebted to Dallara, considering they opted for it as the official chassis and Dallara have done practically no development.

I'd like to see multiple chassis but the economic situation won't allow for it at the moment. I hope they choose the Lola partly because of the variable configuration and because the basic chassis can be used in Indy Lights.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't recall many airborne incidents involving F1 cars. Martin Brundle at Melbourne in 1996 springs to mind, Derek Daly at Monaco 1980, and sadly Gilles Villeneuves's crash in 1982 at Zolder.

There are probably a couple more but I think you'll find they are very few and far between in F1.

all of these taken from one single compliation

Damon Hill (crash with schumacher, cant remember race)
Barrichello at Imola 94
Katayama, portugal 95
Canada 98 (1st corner)
Fisichella, spa practice in 2000 (i think)
Startline flip by a prost/ligier at Hockenhiem
Ferrari at Australia
De Cesaris in the mid 80s (think that was Osterichring)
Was it the 2 minardis at Monza that clipped over the finish line?
Phillipe Alliot, Mexico 98
Erm i think a Jordan but no idea when or where
Patrese at Portugal (i think, certainly a Williams)
Minardi vs Williams

it also doesn't include the fatal incident at Monza when debris hit a marshal, plus umpteen other examples of cars flipping or rolling.

Nah you're right, F1 cars don't get airborne at all often do they?

[post not meant to offend, its just a flippant way of pointing out the inaccuracy of the post ]

[JagtechOhio]

If Dallara makes their presentation this week as scheduled, and puts a plan on the table that guarantees their stated promise of building a race car production facility on the side lawn of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway...GAME OVER.

If Bruce Ashmore of BAT is correct, and Dallara does not prove their word is as good as gold, then his plan to employ local Indianapolis subcontractors for manufacturing and construction will be accepted as the next best alternative.

This is a money deal. It is not a racing decision, or a popularity contest, or a grand quest for the renewal of the Indy heritage.

That's why Honda has ben selected to build the engines, and independant builders have been excluded. If others want to pay to play, they are invited. Nobody does.

Any supplier of a second or third engine, or a second or third chassis, will then be faced with the prospect of making a huge investment with no guarantee of customers. If they justify the gamble and attempt to enter competition, they must then rely on the IRL to establish and regulate performance targets that give them a fair opportunity to compete...on the race track , and at the table where long term contracts are signed.

Remember, Falcon was accepted as a chassis constructor too. There was talk that they received no cooperation from the existing engine builder, teams that were unwilling to place advance orders on an unknown product, and a complete failure before one car was ever completed.

Where is the demonstrable evidence that the current marketplace has changed? Healthy team financials and a growth trend in the popularity of IndyCar?

[JagtechOhio]

1) Open wheel cars fly
2) The closer they race together, the more often they will fly.
3) The more balanced the speed between competitors, the closer they will race together.
4) The faster they are going when they touch wheels, the higher and farther they will fly.
5) When you race a full field of Dallaras, only Dallaras will fly.

Next week, we'll take a closer look at making a delicious glass of chocolate milk. It ain't that difficult, either.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

all of these taken from one single compliation

Damon Hill (crash with schumacher, cant remember race)
Barrichello at Imola 94
Katayama, portugal 95
Canada 98 (1st corner)
Fisichella, spa practice in 2000 (i think)
Startline flip by a prost/ligier at Hockenhiem
Ferrari at Australia
De Cesaris in the mid 80s (think that was Osterichring)
Was it the 2 minardis at Monza that clipped over the finish line?
Phillipe Alliot, Mexico 98
Erm i think a Jordan but no idea when or where
Patrese at Portugal (i think, certainly a Williams)
Minardi vs Williams

it also doesn't include the fatal incident at Monza when debris hit a marshal, plus umpteen other examples of cars flipping or rolling.

Nah you're right, F1 cars don't get airborne at all often do they?

[post not meant to offend, its just a flippant way of pointing out the inaccuracy of the post ]

I did say I didn't recall many incidents and that there were probably a couple more. If there is any innacuracy it's to do with my memory, though having looked at that compilation the vast majority of those cars never left the ground, a number of them flipped, having already gone off the track, a few climbed up over other cars and about two or three actually took off, so I'll stand by what I said in my previous post.

If your post wasn't meant to offend, then there's no need to defend it.

[JagtechOhio]

It's no knock against you bjohn, it's a knock against the argument. There is no argument, just facts.

Now the IRL has been lobbied to establish a minimum fuel level in the race cars, so fuel starvatation will not occur and Conway's crash could have been prevented. Right.

So what about a blocked fuel pickup, of loss of fuel pressure from a mechanical fault like Jay Howard experienced at Texas? What about another non-contact rear suspension failure like Sato suffered? A blown u-joint, or a driver rapidly decellerating from a sudden tire pressure loss?

There are a myriad of circumstances that will cause one open wheel car to rapidly slow in front of another open wheel car. So the solution is to add more fuel?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

It's no knock against you bjohn, it's a knock against the argument. There is no argument, just facts.

I'm not denying these incidents happen, I doesn't seem like there have been that many when an F1 car does take off.

[Hepatic]

My point is "taking off" doesn't have to be as spectacular as what Conway or Franchitti experienced. Any car that has all 4 wheels leave the ground should be also classed as "taking off", so that should include the various flips and rolls we've seen including those in the clips i linked to.

its simply a factor of open wheel racing, unless you turn them in to GT/NASCAR type bodies it will always happen. i just hope we can continue building barriers that take the hit and cars that ensure the driver survives it.

PS. i like this forum, it so less inclined to fall in to a slanging match than keep to a reasoned discussion, unlike other areas around 10ths...

[JagtechOhio]

Hepatic,

that was kind of you to say about this forum, and good for us to remember...especially me. Thanks for being an IndyCar fan.

[Whosyermon]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Whosyer:

Roof flaps. Which were sufficient to counteract the aero lift, until the CoT design. The CoT generates too much lift when it is going backwards, and removing the rear wing is only part of the problem.

Oh you meant what did they do... not what they continued to ignore or how when in under pressure to prove their dedication took credit for someone else's work.

I guess I must have misread your question.

[Andy Roberts]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

PS. i like this forum, it so less inclined to fall in to a slanging match than keep to a reasoned discussion, unlike other areas around 10ths...

Agreed!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

My point is "taking off" doesn't have to be as spectacular as what Conway or Franchitti experienced. Any car that has all 4 wheels leave the ground should be also classed as "taking off", so that should include the various flips and rolls we've seen including those in the clips i linked to.

its simply a factor of open wheel racing, unless you turn them in to GT/NASCAR type bodies it will always happen. i just hope we can continue building barriers that take the hit and cars that ensure the driver survives it.

PS. i like this forum, it so less inclined to fall in to a slanging match than keep to a reasoned discussion, unlike other areas around 10ths...

The IndyCar section of this forum is really good. I suppose a lot of it's to do with the dire situation the IRL is in and IndyCar race fans would like see their sport return to what it was before the split and this where they can come and express their thoughts about the future of IndyCar racing.

As for F1 cars taking off or not we can debate that on the F1 section; you can start the thread.

[Hepatic]

no i can't, i got myself banned from there, mainly to save my own sanity

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

no i can't, i got myself banned from there, mainly to save my own sanity

Welcome to IndyCar, or the resemblance of a once great open wheel series.

[JagtechOhio]

IndyCar:

Home of F1's second stringers.

Life could always be worse, Hep...you could be forever banished to a Nascar Camping World Truck site, locked in mortal debate about Nelson Piquet Jr's setup skills.