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Old 14 Jul 2018, 13:22 (Ref:3836639)   #51
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post

So, harping back to my point. You either have all electric (Formula E) or fossil fuel power for your race performance. To combine the two in hybrids, similar to the diesel electric locos, is a very inefficient way of producing power.

I'm enjoying the discussion so happy to be corrected.
The diesel electric combination is not a hybrid so should not be included in any conversation concerning hybrid propulsion. A hybrid has battery storage, runs as an EV for as long as those batteries have enough energy stored then switches seamlessly to (usually) an IC motor which then powers the vehicle and restores the battery to a usable level.

A range extender has a power combination just like the electric train but the IC component cannot power the vehicle as a hybrid can, it powers a generator which then charges batteries which are used to drive the vehicle with electric motors.

There is huge confusion between the two systems for some reasons. This is an old (2015) video but it explains things well and the speaker is very entertaining. I have posted this before but here it is again for those who missed it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4H3FE0Z4QQ
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 14:04 (Ref:3836644)   #52
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Yes indeed and I agree. But it is not a racing application where the economics just don't work. Nor do they need to work.

Fascinating link though. Thank you.

Come back to my basic point. If you can make a NA engine produce 700bhp and burn 100litres of fuel in 200 miles then it is a better proposition than the hybrid simply because it's cheaper and does the job.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 14:05 (Ref:3836645)   #53
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Better look at Andrew Frankel's report about the experience of Porsche which I posted above. We are of course talking about racing which is not the same as aggressive driving or normal road driving. If you read the science for those types of driving the hybrid does indeed show more "economy".
I have read the report. The main issue I have with it, in the context of how 'green' the technology is, is that he only compares the hybrid to the NA on the basis of time around a track. What he doesn't mention is how much extra fuel the NA car(s) require to match the hybrid lap time.

Remember, in a NA car, all energy is going one way - from the energy store into kinetic energy. Whenever the car is not applying power to the wheels, there is no energy going anywhere else other than to waste.

So the hybrid in comparison does have greater mass to propel, but also recovers energy that initially came from the energy store to use again. As long as the amount of recovered energy is higher than the amount needed to propel the extra weight, it will be more efficient overall.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 14:06 (Ref:3836646)   #54
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If you can make a NA engine produce 700bhp and burn 100litres of fuel in 200 miles
Can you? And what do you think happens when you put that engine together with a hybrid drivetrain in the same car?
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 14:47 (Ref:3836648)   #55
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Yes like the man said you are asking the wrong question.

If you add the hybrid drivetrain you add weight which means you have to provide more or different power. This is great for long term requirements. But for racing it's totally unnecessary. Yes Frankel doesn't mention fuel economy because it's irrelevant.

If we can do the NA thing you'd obviously need regular rebuilds, again so what? Still cheaper than €20m per unit, or €80m per year and you get the same result.

I confess that were I to be looking for another 4×4 to replace my Grand Cherokee I'd look for a hybrid. But my circumstances mean it would be a waste financially since I wouldn't do more than 5k miles per year.

Then again I'm trying to stop myself buying a Bullit Mustang because it would be more fun and as my annual mileage as above, is low, it would make economic sense. Can't use it as a tow car though.

BTW CRM I agree with you about the green bit but again we are talking about racing and that means green requirements are of lesser importance since the amount of time spent racing is miniscule compared to.the overall amount of time that vehicles are driven on the roads around the world.

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Old 14 Jul 2018, 14:52 (Ref:3836650)   #56
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If you add the hybrid drivetrain you add weight which means you have to provide more or different power. This is great for long term requirements. But for racing it's totally unnecessary.
How is better fuel economy and more power unnecessary for racing?
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 14:54 (Ref:3836651)   #57
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If you can do it at the price of the NA then it is good. But if it costs €80m per year to do it, surely even you can see that it is just not viable.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 15:23 (Ref:3836654)   #58
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That seems like a very weak argument to me. Of course slower less economical engines are cheaper. Just like slower race cars are cheaper. Going fast costs money, going faster still costs exponentially more. That's always been the case since the dawn of motorracing.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 15:30 (Ref:3836656)   #59
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That seems like a very weak argument to me. Of course slower less economical engines are cheaper. Just like slower race cars are cheaper. Going fast costs money, going faster still costs exponentially more. That's always been the case since the dawn of motorracing.
Well, it's not that simple, is it? You could remove the current engines and put a V12 in there of the same power, achieving approximately the same speed, but at a much-reduced cost.

If you want to go faster within a set of regulations it'll cost more. But when you're talking about things like differing engine sets you're comparing different regulations, and you can most certainly build a regulation set that'll allow you to go quicker for less money.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 15:45 (Ref:3836657)   #60
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Well, it's not that simple, is it? You could remove the current engines and put a V12 in there of the same power, achieving approximately the same speed, but at a much-reduced cost.

If you want to go faster within a set of regulations it'll cost more. But when you're talking about things like differing engine sets you're comparing different regulations, and you can most certainly build a regulation set that'll allow you to go quicker for less money.
Bingo!

But of course it is a much more complex discussion. Watching CRM's video the narrator makes the point that turbines are not efficient when they need to accelerate and decelerate. They are super efficient when running at their most effective and economic speed, which is constant. I believe this was the basis of the Williams technology some years ago where they proposed a constantly spinning gyro to cut in and out at times when power was needed.

So in pure racing terms, if we want more competitors we need to reduce the costs and still provide an exciting spectacle. Thus as Akropovic says a different rule set is required. And since, if I am correct, in terms of fuel burn the usage, my idea would be just as green.

I know there must be many arguments to this but indulge me I'm enjoying this.

Edit: I forgot to mention this point.

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Remember, in a NA car, all energy is going one way - from the energy store into kinetic energy. Whenever the car is not applying power to the wheels, there is no energy going anywhere else other than to waste.
And this is why personally I find the hybrid or any other alternative power source fascinating, but not for racing.

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Old 14 Jul 2018, 15:46 (Ref:3836658)   #61
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Well, it's not that simple, is it? You could remove the current engines and put a V12 in there of the same power, achieving approximately the same speed, but at a much-reduced cost.
But also at the cost of much more fuel. Which, again, is the whole point of the hybrid regulations. More power at lesser fuel use. It's fine if you disagree with that vision and think that's not what F1 is supposed to be but at that point I'm not sure what there's left to discuss.

It's a moot point anyway, for a long time now F1 regulations have been meant to slow the cars down, not to make them fast (2017 was a pretty big anomaly in that regard). Anyone can draw up a set of regulations on a napkin that would be far cheaper but at the same time much much faster than F1. But that's not the reality. If you want to set up a series like that, who do you envision is going to foot the bill? Even if it is much cheaper than F1.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 15:50 (Ref:3836659)   #62
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Watching CRM's video the narrator makes the point that turbines are not efficient when they need to accelerate and decelerate. They are super efficient when running at their most effective and economic speed, which is constant. I believe this was the basis of the Williams technology some years ago where they proposed a constantly spinning gyro to cut in and out at times when power was needed.
Yes, I once a few years ago read some technical articles about a proposal for a Le Mans car by I think Jaguar, that would basically be an AWD vehicle powered by 4 independent electric motors which in turn would eventually be fed by 4 micro turbines running at their most efficient speeds possible. To me that sounds pretty damn awesome. And it shows the viability of hybrid powertrains and the idea behind it: combine the best parts of two systems together and get the most out of the energy available.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 16:32 (Ref:3836664)   #63
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................................. To me that sounds pretty damn awesome. And it shows the viability of hybrid powertrains and the idea behind it: combine the best parts of two systems together and get the most out of the energy available.
Agreed and for that kind of racing there is no better because Le Mans, and by extension GT and endurance racing, has always been about pushing the boundaries of technology. Remember the Blower Bentleys (well you probably wouldn't, even I don't)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentle...Blower_Bentley.

These were the first to take that approach, albeit they only had a petrol engine to play with.

Think of the possibilities if you could actually afford to own a car with that proposed Jaguar power train?
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 17:04 (Ref:3836669)   #64
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Agreed and for that kind of racing there is no better because Le Mans, and by extension GT and endurance racing, has always been about pushing the boundaries of technology.
If I'm reading this post correctly, you're saying that F1 is not the place to push technical boundaries?

For my mind, F1 is about many things, technical boundaries being one of them. Current automobile makers are spending a lot of R&D on making a car go further for the same amount of fossil fuel. Some is through small, fuel-efficient ICE. Some is through full-electric. The 3rd way - hybrid - is the area where efficiency, performance and endurance currently meet, both on the road and on the track. So is precisely where F1 should be.

When pure electric (or a.n.other) technology gives us the chance to race at current F1 speed and distance, then hybrid will cease to be relevant and the heavy, unnecessary ICE can be dropped. Until then, hybrid is how the likes of MB show they can go further and faster than ICE-alone on the same amount of fuel.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 17:06 (Ref:3836670)   #65
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Yes exactly.

It's the pinnacle of motorsport, not the pinnacle of technical excellence. That epithet belongs to the WEC.

Did you see the Roborace going up the hill at Goodwood? Was it exciting? Well in answer to those two questions for me. Yes and NO.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 17:23 (Ref:3836674)   #66
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Yes exactly.

It's the pinnacle of motorsport, not the pinnacle of technical excellence. That epithet belongs to the WEC.
That differs slightly from Liberty Media's vision though.

'Engineering technology must remain a cornerstone'

'[PUs] must remain road relevant, hybrid...'

Liberty Media see technology and road relevance, with a hybrid power train, as more important than being a pinnacle of motorsport. Although isn't pushing technological boundaries part of being at the pinnacle?
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 17:34 (Ref:3836676)   #67
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I know. As a real racing cfan I'm allowed to disagree. And all they are doing is pandering to the big businesses.

I don't really care about the planet as far as racing is concerned and neither should they. To be clear we've allowedourselves to be swayed by an ignorant minority. There are much bigger threats to humankind than twenty cars running around at full tilt for 80 hours per year.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 17:34 (Ref:3836677)   #68
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I kind of agree that Le Mans should be that, but F1s marketing power is too big. They can say whatever they want, people will watch anyway.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 17:36 (Ref:3836678)   #69
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Did you see the Roborace going up the hill at Goodwood? Was it exciting? Well in answer to those two questions for me. Yes and NO.
I think it was rather exciting, except for the fact it was full electric. When I think roborace I think of those kind of cars racing at insane speeds on insane tracks where G-Forces don't matter anymore.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 17:49 (Ref:3836679)   #70
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Some irony having fuel saving cars and when all the drivers turn up in private jets....
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 18:16 (Ref:3836681)   #71
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That differs slightly from Liberty Media's vision though.

'Engineering technology must remain a cornerstone'

'[PUs] must remain road relevant, hybrid...'

Liberty Media see technology and road relevance, with a hybrid power train, as more important than being a pinnacle of motorsport. Although isn't pushing technological boundaries part of being at the pinnacle?
I find it very odd that we have these arguments over road relevance, but it only ever centres around one specific component. Why does the PU have to be road relevant, whilst we have open wheels, open cockpits, mad aerodynamics, cars that only work in very specific conditions after a team of engineers spent an hour prepping it, etc.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 18:24 (Ref:3836684)   #72
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I like where you're coming from. Its a very good point.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 18:37 (Ref:3836685)   #73
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I was trying to think of the best example, and tyres is a good one. Formula One tyres are the least road relevant thing in the world. They only get slightly closer when it rains and they stick on wets.

How come the road relevance thing never came up when discussing the halo? Why is it a PU has to be road relevant, but the idea of a roof on a car (possibly the most road relevant idea to be thought of in 70 years) is a non-starter, and the halo is just fine? If road relevance was important, those cars would have LMP style roofs.

Seems like we're picking and choosing when coming to road relevance. Almost feels like the manufacturers control the sport in that regard. They have created a situation where nobody can compete with them, as they've forced the series into an impossibly expensive rules set. And since nobody can come in with a cheaper alternative, they now have a huge amount of control over the series.

Seems like a political power play by the manufacturers, rather than road relevance.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 18:43 (Ref:3836686)   #74
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Indeed as a discussion we could take this further.
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Old 14 Jul 2018, 18:45 (Ref:3836687)   #75
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Seems like we're picking and choosing when coming to road relevance.
Well yes. But that's not a hard thing to explain, when you try to make a car that has to go as fast as possible, the only road relevant thing that's left after all that is the engine. Your point seems valid until you start considering context, history etcetera. And once again, road relevance is not the same as 'having the exact same component on the race car as on the road car'. It seems to me you're confusing two different things here.
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