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Old 22 Apr 2014, 20:24 (Ref:3396906)   #1
Inigo Montoya
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Engine modifications - what is allowed?

I have been reading over on autosprint's website that Red Bull and Ferrari have asked (and been granted permission) to change aspects of their engines 'related to reliability.' My question is how the FIA distinguishes between changes that affect performance and those that affect reliability? Surely there are many changes that can affect both reliability and performance. And since we have not yet seen an engine failure on a Red Bull or Ferrari, how can this be justified?

Am I alone in thinking that these rules (besides the fact that it is full stop stupid to freeze engine development) would be difficult to police?
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Old 22 Apr 2014, 21:12 (Ref:3396930)   #2
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I suspect they don't actually bother to police it because they are happy for these two manufacturers to catch up in the name of competition.

The whole engine freeze malarkey is a total farce in every conceivable way. Just open it up! More manufacturers will arrive as a result as well, probably.
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Old 22 Apr 2014, 21:19 (Ref:3396936)   #3
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I suppose they wouldn't allow a major reconfiguration of the position of the turbo and compressor (a la merc). But it would be great if it is as you say and they won't police it.
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Old 22 Apr 2014, 21:19 (Ref:3396937)   #4
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Yes quite... but this is the FIA we are talking about, they obviously wants to see the engines more closely matched in terms of power to improve competition in the sport and so will use the 'reliability' regulation as the control loophole with which to facilitate that.

The regulations can be flexible... when it suits them.
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Old 22 Apr 2014, 21:21 (Ref:3396939)   #5
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As I understand it, all engine suppliers have submitted their designs to the FIA. They can only bring an engine that differs from the design with prior permission from the FIA.

The theory is that the hardware in the power train should remain static during a season, with most changes coming from software.
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Old 22 Apr 2014, 21:26 (Ref:3396945)   #6
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Hmmm. I guess that is why Ferrari is being allowed to play with the engine mappings. But one turbo failure and they could claim they need to change the design to improve reliability? Will we see a rash of suspicious engine failures?
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Old 22 Apr 2014, 21:26 (Ref:3396946)   #7
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Before the FIA grant permission for modifications, all stakeholders are provided with full technical details of the proposed changes. So, other teams and power-unit providers are able to put forward objections to the FIA prior to the consent, and something in the back of my mind tells me that FIA have receive unanimous agreement to give consent to the changes.
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Old 22 Apr 2014, 21:32 (Ref:3396949)   #8
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That makes sense Mike. Thanks.
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Old 23 Apr 2014, 15:52 (Ref:3397308)   #9
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Appendix 4 of the sporting regulations says that after the FIA has approved a changed it is circulated to the other PU manufacturers, as you say... However, it does not say what happens if the teams object. So far, nobody has objected to the changes (new turbo shaft for Renault, and new engine mappings for Ferrari).
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Old 23 Apr 2014, 16:39 (Ref:3397332)   #10
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Appendix 4 of the sporting regulations says that after the FIA has approved a changed it is circulated to the other PU manufacturers, as you say... However, it does not say what happens if the teams object. So far, nobody has objected to the changes (new turbo shaft for Renault, and new engine mappings for Ferrari).
I very much doubt that they would object because it could be them that needs approval next week/month, so it's a case of you scratch my back, etc. And, in theory, both Renault and Ferrari will have had to demonstrate that the changes were necessary to improve reliability.

This part of the regs springs from the cost saving elements that were necessary to bring in and to keep new entrants. One way of keeping power-unit costs in check is to make them more reliable, and once you have done that you can then restrict the number of units that can be used in a season.

In very broad terms, huge amounts of money was being spent by the then engine suppliers/entrants on constantly producing more and more power from their engines - we even had qualifying only engines - so that the engines became more strained and often less reliable. Now teams will know exactly how many power-units, gearboxes, etc that they will require for the year and what thatpackage will cost. They won't be faced by their supplier in the middle of the season demanding extra money to be provided with the latest spec unit just so that they can keep up with the competitors that can afford the extra cost.

I must admit that I approve of this model, and I wish that more could be done to reduce costs in the sport, and that the sport could return to just being that - a sport, not a race to spend money. Sometimes I think that those running and entering the lofty heights of Formula 1 could learn a lot from the grass-roots of motor-sport, certainly the one that I used to be involved with. We may then not have to face so many conflicts between teams - every time they put their PR hats on, they may smile when talking with/about their fellow competitors, but it's through grirtted teeth.
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Old 23 Apr 2014, 19:47 (Ref:3397425)   #11
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I must admit that I approve of this model, and I wish that more could be done to reduce costs in the sport, and that the sport could return to just being that - a sport, not a race to spend money. Sometimes I think that those running and entering the lofty heights of Formula 1 could learn a lot from the grass-roots of motor-sport, certainly the one that I used to be involved with. We may then not have to face so many conflicts between teams - every time they put their PR hats on, they may smile when talking with/about their fellow competitors, but it's through grirtted teeth.
I can see your point Mike, but as an engineer heavily involved in R&D, freezes on development take a lot away from the sport for me. I do understand the need to keep costs from skyrocketing, but I wish a better compromise could be found. It is a shame that these rules (together with the limits on testing) make it so difficult for the other manufacturers to catch up this year.

I know this is not a popular opinion , but a part of me wishes for a formula where the big boys could just be allowed to play with their toys free of having to worry about the impact on the little guys, who in any case are often on circuit simply to be shown blue flags.
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Old 23 Apr 2014, 20:15 (Ref:3397440)   #12
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I can see your point Mike, but as an engineer heavily involved in R&D, freezes on development take a lot away from the sport for me. I do understand the need to keep costs from skyrocketing, but I wish a better compromise could be found. It is a shame that these rules (together with the limits on testing) make it so difficult for the other manufacturers to catch up this year.

I know this is not a popular opinion , but a part of me wishes for a formula where the big boys could just be allowed to play with their toys free of having to worry about the impact on the little guys, who in any case are often on circuit simply to be shown blue flags.
But the rules don't stop R & D; it just means that they are not able to impliment gains until a certain date in the future. This will (or should) then allow them adequate time to build in reliabilty, rather than testing that potential reliability during the races.

As far as Renault and Ferrari catching up this year, I believe that part of their problem, and I am quite happy to be corrected, is that they have been unable to utilise the full rev range, and are having to restrict the IC units to roughly 12,000 rpm instead of the maximum allowable 15,000 rpm. If, during this year, they are permitted to make the necessary changes to improve reliabilty during this season, which should be permissable, then they may well be in a position to challenge the Merc boys.

In the past, it has been demonstrated that the little guys are more than capable of wipeing the floor with the big boys, and Hesketh and Matra come to mind, so you write them off at your peril.
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Old 23 Apr 2014, 21:22 (Ref:3397452)   #13
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Mike, as I understand it, the large advantage that Mercedes has is down to two main innovations, both virtually impossible for anyone to copy without a redesign that goes far past anything the fia would allow:

1) The configuration of their turbine/compressor. The turbine and compressor are at opposite ends of the engine rather than directly inline. The cool turbine at the front of the car stays cooler because it is far from the exhaust. This gives not only a power advantage, but also a weight and aerodynamic (packaging since they also make the chassis) advantage since their intercooler can be smaller. It also means their tranny at the back of the car can be closer to the center of the car since there is a smaller turbo (compressor is at the front).

2) Much shorter exhausts. As a result of their clever design and packaging, the path to the turbo is much shorter, so that not only do they minimize losses, but they can harvest more heat energy at the turbo since it runs hotter.

This is, in a nutshell, what I have been able to surmise from all the reading I have been doing (the Ferrari spies on Italian websites have lots of info on this), but I am happy to hear input from others.

So you see, Mercedes, being the clever bunch they are have come up with truly innovative solutions, and exploited them both from a power perspective and from a packaging perspective. It would be impossible for this to be copied this year under current FIA rules. Everyone else is left scrambling to do anything they can to gain a few tenths on aero, while merc itself is also not standing still on that front (witness the new shorter front nose they brought to china).

Unless someone does something truly revolutionary on the aero front, not allowing engine development will ensure that the Mercs fade off in the distance every single race this year. But more than that, I would love to have seen how Merc would have improved this system, or others would have developed it (after copying the basic concept). Now we have to write off this year and wait for the next.
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Old 24 Apr 2014, 12:09 (Ref:3397679)   #14
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The turbine/compressor thing really is a stunningly good idea with huge ramifications over lots of areas, and one which, with hindsight is blooming obvious, and yet NO ONE except Mercedes thought of it.

That's the sign of real innovation, and thinking out of the proverbial box.

Well done to them!

I wonder what could happen if they were given free rein.
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Old 24 Apr 2014, 13:02 (Ref:3397698)   #15
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I imagine its not as easy as we might think to run that shaft the length of the engine.
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Old 25 Apr 2014, 08:30 (Ref:3398035)   #16
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I imagine its not as easy as we might think to run that shaft the length of the engine.
I guess we are unlike to know whether the other engine manufactures simply didn't think of this separation., or whether they thought it too difficult to do.

Either way, kudos to Mercedes. Where are the engines designed and made BTW?
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Old 25 Apr 2014, 08:47 (Ref:3398042)   #17
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I imagine its not as easy as we might think to run that shaft the length of the engine.
Being a cynical chap, I was wondering if this was why the turbines were limited to 120 000 rpm, I thought it was a funny restriction at the time, but it would clearly have helped the Merc cause.
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Old 25 Apr 2014, 10:33 (Ref:3398074)   #18
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Where are the engines designed and made BTW?
Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains
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"Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre. There, a team of over 400 people are responsible for the design, manufacture and testing of Formula 1 power units for MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, Force India F1 and the Williams F1 team."
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Old 25 Apr 2014, 12:04 (Ref:3398097)   #19
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Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains
Morgan Drive
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Northamptonshire
England.


"Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre. There, a team of over 400 people are responsible for the design, manufacture and testing of Formula 1 power units for MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, Force India F1 and the Williams F1 team."
Are they based on a previous company incarnation? (But still, nice to know they are a British team...;-))
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Old 25 Apr 2014, 13:12 (Ref:3398112)   #20
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Are they based on a previous company incarnation? (But still, nice to know they are a British team...;-))
I'm pretty sure it's the same location as the old Ilmor Engineering factory. The new Ilmor Engineering factory is at nearby Quarry Road, Brixworth.

Also, no.. it's a German team.
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Old 27 Apr 2014, 21:36 (Ref:3398940)   #21
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I'm pretty sure it's the same location as the old Ilmor Engineering factory. The new Ilmor Engineering factory is at nearby Quarry Road, Brixworth.

Also, no.. it's a German team.
Clearly a German owned team, but presumably staffed by many British workers? Or is that just the cleaners?
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