[Driver] Ricciardo - Verstappen Battle

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GregUK

Here's the current Regulation in full:

Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.

Thanks for that - interesting to see that zones are not mentioned in the regulation, yet many people refer to VER moving twice in the braking zone?

I agree with your view that there can be many opinions - having looked back at replay and still images, I tend to feel VER acted in accordance with the regulations.

'Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.'

If the racing line is considered to be on the right, he moved towards this line along the straight then made a single move left to defend.

If the racing line is considered to be on the left, he defended his position off-line (the drift to the right) and then moved back to the racing line.

Either way - their was a car's width left on both sides at the time of impact...

[Kempi]

This is a very old discussion about moving and the dangers of it. When there used to be no regulation of it at all, people were already saying this is dangerous. Now there are regulations on it, people still do it and we discuss the outcome.

Putting it simple: use common sense at 300+ kph. If you move, you run the danger of being hit.

The storyline developed by Red Bull is a good one for the stewards. I still believe DR was fed up with MV's antics and thus just may have happend to leave the braking too late.

[gert]

I agree with the stewards. Both drivers at fault. We can all debate if it's 50/50, 60/40 or 40/60, but I think we all agree that we saw this coming.

I was surprised they were as aggressive against each other at that stage of the race, and not working together to gang up against Hamilton who was not that far ahead and not at ease on his set of tires.

[Skam85]

I do recall the swerving rule was brought in due to MSC’s antics in the mid 90s?

Either way, Max and Dan must have been inspired by the ‘Street Fighters’ F1 signage all over the track.

[GregUK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHhQV5zUUkY

A buddy just posted this on Faceberk. I offer no comment......

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Max Crashtappen at it again lmao

You do know that doesn’t get any funnier no matter how often you say it, right?

[Richard C]

Lots of discussion. I will try to not rehash much of what has already been said. I agree with this...

Originally Posted by Kempi

Putting it simple: use common sense at 300+ kph. If you move, you run the danger of being hit.

Generally it seems MV seems to move around quite a bit to try to defend and it gets him into trouble. Not to mention injecting himself into questionable gaps. Regardless of percentage of blame, MV seems to loose lots of points (or good results if you want to put it another way) via his driving tactics. It is unlikely that situation will change unless he adjusts.

To be really controversial and stir the pot... how about RBR working to keep DR and then letting MV go elsewhere? Has MV seen his day?

My point is that we seem to brush this aside as "youthful indiscretion" (euphemism for... "Someday he will get his act together"). What if he doesn't change? At some point his propensity for on track incidents will define him and maybe he knock himself off the pedestal everyone wants to place him on.

Too much promise of future success to be wasted by avoidable antics.

Richard

[Kempi]

I agree Richard. This is kind of the make or break season for MV. Either he gets his act together and will be WDC by 2020 (subject to RBR's performance) or he will not change and will never be WDC.

[loon]

i really don't care whose fault it was, there is nothing more fun than watching team mates crash into each other, a priceless moment

[JHamilton]

It was Max' fault but I agree with the loon above me.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by loon

i really don't care whose fault it was, there is nothing more fun than watching team mates crash into each other, a priceless moment

As long as nobody got physically hurt of course...

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I do recall the swerving rule was brought in due to MSC’s antics in the mid 90s?

Either way, Max and Dan must have been inspired by the ‘Street Fighters’ F1 signage all over the track.

Or as Ted Kravitz put it Street F-One-ighters...

seriously, his brain couldn't work out that the 1 in F1ghters simple replaced the i and it was still spoken fighters.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

Yup! Was only ever going to have this result.

Would also like to see the braking traces, why didn't the stewards call for them? Looked like Verstappen braked very early. Brake test?

That is the first thing that occurred to me when I saw it, he brake checked DR to put him off but I have no problem with that, all's fair in love and war.

The real issue here is not the two drivers so much as the way F1 has reduced braking distances and thus braking time. Reducing them to such an extent has meant that drivers have to make split second decisions both in defense and attack and they don't always get it right. That is compounded by the limited vision they have also which everyone here would be shocked by if they had to drive with that sort of vision. if the braking time were to increase these sort of incidents and the way that passing under brakes is now done would cease but that would be too easy of course and the forum experts will not agree so it won't happen.

Racing is all about time but that does not seem to penetrate the debate when speed is spouted as king and we always need to go faster don't we. Compress time and when decisions have to be made the chance factor rises as the time to make them compresses, simple logic and it often goes wrong. Then add in two drivers who are determined in one instance not to be passed and the other determined he won't be defied and the compressed time problem grows even worse. If the time was longer they could both strategise their positions and make more considered decisions.

[fieldodreams79]

I bet it was a fun Monday at Redbull Racing!

If it wasn't for these two battling and crashing each other out, this race would've been just another race.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

You do know that doesn’t get any funnier no matter how often you say it, right?

Well, Formula One mangement thought it was worthy of a Max Verstappen crash compilation on the official Formula One channel! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkAoSghdD6Y&

lol

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

...
To me it's 60/40 Daniel at fault. ...

Lauda says 70/30

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...red-bull-clash

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Lauda says 70/30

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...red-bull-clash

Yes but 70/30 Max's fault.

[Adam43]

oops, good point. I meant to quote someone else who said 60/40 the other way,

[F1Guy]

I like Ross Brawn's explanation much better.


Ross Brawn: "But I would like to highlight a technical point. Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction blocking that line, the Australian became a passenger. The downforce loss experienced by Ricciardo in the wake of Verstappen's car would have made it unstoppable.

"We often think of downforce applying in cornering, but the impact the extra grip has in braking is huge. Take away that grip in braking and what happened on Sunday was inevitable."

[S griffin]

Maybe this is something Ross needs to look at when reducing downforce

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Maybe this is something Ross needs to look at when reducing downforce

Yes, as a reduction of the downforce would mean that losing it would not be such a problem. Maybe the change could be forced through on 'safety grounds'?

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Lauda says 70/30

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...red-bull-clash

Yeah I've changed my mind on that 60/40 anyway lol. I was still feeling a little Max-biased because of the way Ricciardo was applauded at China while Verstappen was heavily criticised when in reality their moves weren't all that different. Ricciardo's move on Bottas was more risky than Max's move on Hamilton. But Bottas let him away with it while Hammy pushed Max straight off the track which allowed Ricciardo past. Coming out of that weekend Ricciardo is suddenly the messiah the only guy that could beat Hamilton in the Merc, while Verstappen has now earned the nickname Crashtappen lol.

I think Niki is just wrong at 70/30 though. Who's Niki Lauda anyway? Some cranky old man that hasn't smiled in 50 years. Ricciardo was always going to the inside. The dart to the outside then back to the inside was always just a dummy. It almost worked but then Verstappen moved back slightly and Ricciardo at that point should have quickly backed out of it. But it all happened too quick, he only had a fraction of time to get out of it, he failed then lost downforce. There was still some room to the inside as well, he might have just squeezed in there... or he would have slammed into the wall.

Anyway it's interesting how everyone has a different view on it. Makes motor racing exciting.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Anyway it's interesting how everyone has a different view on it. Makes motor racing exciting.

Agree 100% - and that's why it's good to discuss (in a mature manner) the events within motorsport, where differing opinions can be respected and debated.

























But unless you agree with the fact that Max did nothing wrong, then you're wrong.

[Razzzor]

Just watching the move again lol

start at 3:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iculr0LElws

Coming around the last corner he was 0.9sec+ behind, he was so far back no one else made any moves from that far back in F1 or F2, you normally had to be no more than 0.7sec behind to get enough with DRS to be alongside at the braking zone. 0.4-0.6sec and you might clear them before the braking zone.

He came from so far back, when they got to the braking point he still wouldn't have been alongside at all, he was just hoping there would be space but there was no way if Verstappen was in front of him he was going to stop, loss of aero or not.

It would have been as last-minute as Vettels move, but probably more speed since Vettels restart was actually pretty poor and it was restart afterall. Max should have left the corner to him. If he somehow made it around, he'd look like a hero.

Actually looking at speeds yes Ricciardo hit 340kph down that straight in that move. The restart incident with Vettel/Hamilton/Bottas, Hamilton was third in line and got the best slipstream but was still only 320kph. Daniel was 20kph faster than Seb in those moves, and they both braked at the same point because you can still see Ricciardo's black lockup line. I suppose Seb had cold tyres though.

[S griffin]

Looked like a misjudgement from both drivers, but Max definitely moved twice to break the tow prior to that