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Old 15 Apr 2003, 19:29 (Ref:570417)   #26
John Turner
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I tend to agree with Klaus about keeping originality, although I don't have too much of a problem with rebuilds, even after 'write offs' if someone can afford to carry out the rebuild. Fact; racing cars crash or wear parts out and this starts from the day they are built and go out onto the circuits. It's a bit like the comment about the old axe which was still regarded as the original one even though the handle had been changed 4 times and the head 3 times! As long as there is continuous documented history, it's fine and acceptable.

I'd like clarification on what was wrong with the Lola Mk6 rebuild. Yes it may be better, dare I say safer than the 'original' car, but I for one was pleased to see it out. Historic racing cars, to a certain extent are safer now anyway, because for the most part they are better prepared, have had many of the less reliable parts replaced with outwardly identical items, using modern technology/knowledge and even, no doubt the rubber used in original spec tyres is better. Its the outward signs of safety such as the roll over hoop which changes the spectacle and I certainly didn't enjoy the appearance of the originally lovely DBR2 driven by Brian Redman at the Goodwood Revival in 1998. It had a high and ugly roll hoop which completely marred its looks, although I understand that may have been fitted many years ago when it was racing in the U.S.A. Of course, maybe Redman would not have raced it without! On the other hand, I feared for Juan Barazi at last year's meeting when he had huge impact in his fairly recently acquired 250LM (the original 2nd place car at 1965 Le Mans, I believe) at the approach to St. Mary's. Fortunately, he walked away from it but the car was comprehensively damaged. I doubt that it would have had many 'modern' safety features to it.

We do have to take a responsible approach to safety but it's all about bringing a sensible balance to it. Unlike the American 'races', British and European historics tend to be very competitive (see my Historic Racers thread) but I would be loathe to see certain safety features incorporated that destroyed the original appearance. Easy for me to say, of course, because I don't drive them, but as others have said, the drivers know the risks but also derive the pleasure that so few of us have the opportunity to enjoy. As I said, it's all about balancing the risk and safety aspects. Let's enjoy the 'golden age' of historic racing, as safety regs may take much of the spectacle away. Indeed the owners of those cars who will not be preoared to make the required changes will take them off the circuits for good. We'll all lose then.
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Old 15 Apr 2003, 20:48 (Ref:570503)   #27
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
You can't put Roll hoops on them!!! You don't put a roll hoop on your Bike do you? You don't put a safety cage in your own car do you?
The whole point is that they look vintage! You can't go around raping those beautiful cars of all that made them so brilliant!
What use is a hoop gonna be? What are you gonna mount it to? How much use would it be anyway? Since when did you hear of a driver being killed when his car rolled over these days?
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Old 16 Apr 2003, 05:46 (Ref:570771)   #28
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This is in answer to pirenzo who seems to be talking

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You don't put a roll hoop on your Bike do you?
Think there is a slight difference.

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You don't put a safety cage in your own car do you?
All modern cars have saftey cells built into them and have had for many years, all modern race cars must have them and they are used (just ask the mini lads from the other week at mallory).

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What use is a hoop gonna be?
It stops your head being used as a brake (and the tarmac will win) and saying that you will be thrown clear or you can hide in the footwell, what a load of rubbish if you get stuck youll end up with a very heavy car ontop of you.

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How much use would it be anyway?
You really should know that one.

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Since when did you hear of a driver being killed when his car rolled over these days?
This is my point you dont but you used to when these cars ran many years ago. Now a days the drivers who drive these old cars will not take the same risks but it only has to happen once and that could be it.

Last edited by brickkicker; 16 Apr 2003 at 05:49.
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Old 16 Apr 2003, 08:39 (Ref:570857)   #29
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Originally posted by pirenzo
Since when did you hear of a driver being killed when his car rolled over these days?
No sense of irony, have we?

Why aren't drivers killed in rollovers? Because they are protected by roll hoops/cages. I've already had one incident this year where a car barrel rolled & ended up upside down resting on the roll hoop. The driver walked away; without the roll hoop it would have been a very different story.
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Old 22 Apr 2003, 10:21 (Ref:576298)   #30
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I recently bought a Lotus Eleven which I have already raced and hopefully will continue to actively campaign this season. (when the engine is rebuilt following the car being not quite as race ready as the vendor claimed...hhmmmm)
The first thing I had added to it was a roll bar and belts. I thibk the design is fairly subtle and certainly not in the same mould as the replica D Types.
I race for fun and dont want to add extra risk unneccessarily. Its not just rolling but also being shunted heavily in the rear with no hoop and belts the risk of neck injury is pretty large.
When I look at the grid of BRDC 50s Sportscars virtually all have some form of rollbar and I do not think the grid's attractiveness is seriously damaged. As an aside in the 50's and 40's cigarettes were unfiltered but I dont see too many unfiltered these days!!
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Old 8 Jul 2003, 15:22 (Ref:655929)   #31
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Having been at Brands on Sunday and seen Don Shead's incident in the Allard, I have to change my tune. If people are going to race historics they must have roll cages and belts.
Having said that, some of the roll bars on the Lotus 23's were grotesque and spoilt the look of the car while others were OK.
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 10:18 (Ref:657720)   #32
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I agree about the 23b's with square roll bars. The US rules stipulate them, they are v ugly and I am not sure what extra protection they offer. The US require the hoop to be taller than the helmut the UK is more relaxed and a personal thing.
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 12:51 (Ref:657859)   #33
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Well spotted D-Type. Quoting from Autosport "Its strength, preparation and extended roll hoop probably saved his life." The hoop has a 4" extension, taking it about level with the driver's helmet.

Ultimately, I do believe it is down to the driver/owner. Let's be honest. Only a full cage (Superlight R style) offers true protection. A roll hoop alone isn't so effective on gravel or soft earth. Yet we allow hoops on all modern single-seaters. We all know that if cages were mandated, we would never see an ERA or 250F in anger again.

In 'my' class ('50s F3 cars), my brother has a hoop just above the helmet, plus belts. I appreciate it isn't perfect, but in many situations would save his life. We both accept the risks. Others (David Woodhouse for example) have no hoop and the seat bulkhead comes up to about the sternum. That's his decision. But if my brother had a car like that I would most certainly have words.
Bottom line then: leave it to the owners to make their decision.
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 13:29 (Ref:657894)   #34
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
well said HiRich
I fall into the same camp as your brother, but there are cars in BRDC Historic Sportscars who dont. Its not just rolling the car but the whiplash from being hit up the rear that I dont like the sound of!
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 14:52 (Ref:657951)   #35
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the possibility of maiming or dying I dont like the sound of at all, I know its different in saloons and FHC's . . .I wouldnt drive my TVR on the road wiothout its 1/2 cage . . . .its made out of Blackpool rock!

SImons roll hoop is very subtle and to the untrained eye wouldnt look anything other than original, safety hoops have been mandatory for my lifetime, and done well actually look good, I take your point about the ERA and the like though
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 15:14 (Ref:657972)   #36
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Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Just out of interest I've got a piece (related to Touring Cars) on my website. By all means have a look http://www.mallettracing.co.uk

Not a plug but let me know what you think.
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Old 10 Jul 2003, 15:32 (Ref:657988)   #37
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zefarelly has a real shot at the podium!zefarelly has a real shot at the podium!zefarelly has a real shot at the podium!zefarelly has a real shot at the podium!
good page Peter, particularly for those starting to find out, and Fred pic of the mini is enough to make anyone think twice!
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Old 11 Jul 2003, 14:41 (Ref:658840)   #38
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Thanks. I owe a lot to the guys on this forum for pointing me at some of the pics. And also providing them. You might also have a look at the History page. Its a bit from memory but there are some great photo's on there.
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Old 12 Jul 2003, 14:42 (Ref:659568)   #39
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Old crash helmets are not allowed to be used when racing, nor should cars with inadequate roll cages. (The definition of inadequate is not one I wish to discuss here.)
Old, sorry historic, cars don’t race with the same tyres they originally had, they have new ones, the original tyres would have perished long ago. The new tyres may look the same, but they are made with modern machinery, much more stable and consistent.
The same goes for helmets, they might look similar to helmets of 30 years ago, but they are a lot stronger and a lot lighter.
People can fit roll cages that look however they want them to look, as long as they are strong and safe for everyone concerned.
I saw the historic formula fords at Brands Hatch last weekend, going into Druids one car ran up the rear wheel of another, one car sat on the roll hoop of the other, no damage to either driver. No roll hoops, and you tell me what you think would have happened to one of those drivers?
Safety isn’t optional or good looking, it is mandatory if you are involved in motor racing.
As for originality, originally these cars killed some drivers, I think that is as good a reason as any to change them a little.
Single seaters, saloons, or any type of race car, if you race it today it must be safe today. If you want to look at a race car then look at it. If you want to race a car then make it safe to be raced. If you want to see old cars race with no roll cages, watch the movies.
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