Lord Draysons comments regarding sportscar racing ten years from now

[Atle Gulbrandsen]

Forget the sound. The world moves on, and the most important thing is speed! I'd love to see all electric racing cars!

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Atle Gulbrandsen

Forget the sound. The world moves on, and the most important thing is speed! I'd love to see all electric racing cars!

Suspect lots of people will scream, shout, and clutch their heads when they read this; I won't be one of them.

Agree absolutely that it would be fascinating to see a proper all electric race car - much as Yves Courage was talking about running, and personally can't wait to see one.

[Lazy]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

I somehow dont think the noise rules could be the same, not with the new car's, the new Matech Ford GT is one of the loudest racing car's ive heard in year's (and also one of the best sounding.)

I have not heard both series live but I just dont understand how this what you are saying is possible.

ACO 2010 regs GT1/GT2 and LMP:
5.8.4. - Noise level: The sound emitted from each car will must not exceed 112 dbA during the qualifying practices and the race. The measurement will be made at 15 meters from the edge of the track.

Ecxatly same in 2009, in 2007/2008 limit was 113.

FIA GT 2010 regs:
Catalytic exhausts are not mandatory. It is recommended that the noise level as defined in Articles 257.5.6.3 of the 2010 Appendix J and 258.5.7.2 of the 2009 Appendix J be respected.

Appendix J:
5.6.3 The noise emitted by the car must not exceed 112 dB(A) during the qualifying practice sessions and the race. The measurement will be carried out 15 metres from the edge of the track.
All measures taken to ensure that the maximum noise limits are not exceeded must be permanent in nature, and must not be eliminated by the exhaust gas pressure.

In 2007, 2008 and 2009 limit was 113

Maybe the FIA series dont enforce it as strictly as the ACO series, the FIA GT car's are definetely louder than LMS GT2 car's.

FIA writes down something that is meaningless? Somehow not very likely..? Well ... "It is recommended that" and "be respected" whatever that means but what team wants to take risk with disqualification ?

[Joe Taylor]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Speaking as a marshal, the thought of dealing with a crashed electric car with a 150-200 volt battery pack capable of producing a current of maybe hundreds (or thousands?) of amps scares me silly. But that could just be ignorance, so someone please reassure me.

Is it really any more dangerous than dealing with a crashed petrol car, containing a large amount of highly volatile liquid, which is injected into an extremely hot lump of metal in the presence of a spark initiator?

[Purist]

If the fuel tank isn't ruptured, there's no such problem really. Oil line fires tend to burn themselves out pretty quickly. If a fire does break out, an extinguisher can be used at some distance from the car.

With an all electric system, it may be okay to touch the car, or parts of the car, or effectively none of the car. Of course, there isn't really a good way to tell just which of those scenarios it is. I know F1 had a light on the KERS-equipped cars that was supposed to tell marshals if it's okay to touch the car, but sensors can give false readings, especially after a hard impact. Also, what do you do if the driver perhaps needs outside assistance to be extracted, but the warning light is telling you that you can't safely do that?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

within the next decade or two mainstream automobiles will probably become mostly powered by fuel cells or be plug-in-EVs. .

Hmmm, so you think that the auto industry will make these dream mobiles for the warmer climates whilst making more realistic vehicles for the northern climates?

Fuel cells- pipe dream.

Electric cars- down south maybe they can sucker some people to be slaves to an electrical outlet, but up here where it can hit sub-zero Fahrenheit for up to a week straight and be a normal night time temperature for two months easily, while automobiles must be able navigate a foot or more snow till plows get all road cleared, electric vehicles would be something out of a Benny Hill skit.

The internal combustion engine isn't going away in your lifetime.

[Nordic]

I expect Lord Dryson also owns a battery company.

But he does have a point, Motorsport will have to evolve to survive. i dont see wholly electirc cars being the norm for a long while yet either on the road or track, but that is the direction sponsors and car makers want to go, then the sport will follow the money.

Its all about the money and there is a finate amount of oil available, again along way to go before its a problem, that does not mean we should not look to the future now.

[Tim the Grey]

Drayson is IIRC Technology Minister over here, so is talking up his department, as any good Minister should...

I don't see he's wrong, personally.

As the marshal's enquiry earlier? There may be some worrying incidents early on, as the unforeseen happens, but things will swiftly reach the same level as today, where crashes have happened in real life, and we know what can happen, in real life. Yes, early doors, I suspect there may be 'interesting times', but it will improve.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Nordic

I expect Lord Dryson also owns a battery company.

But he does have a point, Motorsport will have to evolve to survive. i dont see wholly electirc cars being the norm for a long while yet either on the road or track, but that is the direction sponsors and car makers want to go, then the sport will follow the money.

Its all about the money and there is a finate amount of oil available, again along way to go before its a problem, that does not mean we should not look to the future now.

I don't think oil supplies are the real issues, it's petrol/diesel prices, environmental taxes etc.

Even if I was fortunate enough to afford a high end sportscar, I'd be looking at low(er) emission sportscars that could do 20-30mpg+, rather gas guzzlers.

[HORNDAWG]

The Right Honourable Lord Paul Drayson is The Minsiter of Science and Innovation as well as jointly being a Minister of Defence.
So a reliable electric/hybrid would be a goal for both of those positions, I would think.







L.P.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by JAG

I don't think oil supplies are the real issues, it's petrol/diesel prices, environmental taxes etc.

Even if I was fortunate enough to afford a high end sportscar, I'd be looking at low(er) emission sportscars that could do 20-30mpg+, rather gas guzzlers.

If you could really afford a high end sports car, the likely depreciation and its maintenance costs I doubt the price of fuel would be a very big concern.

Most of them don't seem to do that many miles per annum either. The likelihood is that the life style you would be leading would make fuel cost considerations for your sports car(s) a non-issue.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by grantp

If you could really afford a high end sports car, the likely depreciation and its maintenance costs I doubt the price of fuel would be a very big concern.

Most of them don't seem to do that many miles per annum either. The likelihood is that the life style you would be leading would make fuel cost considerations for your sports car(s) a non-issue.

It depends what you class as high end, I'd suggest many in the market for a car between £50k to £100k will be increasingly sensitive to running costs.

Slightly O/T, but it was reported one of the reasons the new Mclaren MP4 is so reserved, style wise, is due to customers becoming self conscious about what they drive, I believe that will increasingly apply to a cars environmental credentials.

[dxk1]

This electric talk makes me think of Geoffrey Goddard's story in Road and Track back in 1966 or so about the tiny little slot car with the tiny little gas engine that was out-running the Ferraris and Fords. Seems like old Geoffrey was years ahead of his time.

DK

[Flat12-Aircool]

All this talk about Electric cars in the future just ain't going to happen, there's simply not enough Lithium supplies in the world to power them all.

http://scitizen.com/future-energies/...a-14-2040.html

Unless they come up with some other way of storing the electrical energy on a mass market scale, then Electrically powered cars are a complete dead end.

If I was a betting man then my money would be on a massive expansion of Algae based fuels to power future vehicles. They produce more fuel than regular Bio-mass crops and also extract Co2 from the atmosphere whilst doing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

Plus we still get to have loud Racing cars!

[betablocker]

electric cars always confuse me is it really better to fire up a huge powerstation either on fossil fuels or nuclear power compared to using petrol or diesel.

battery technology even massivly better than 10yrs ago still is pretty shocking for use in a car. a tesla barely does 150miles. and thats not even with heaters on and lights etc etc. also batteries have a downward scale of life, everyone knows the more times u use ur ipod or phone laptop after a while your battery life just aint as good as it once was.

i think battery powered cars are a massive white elephant

[grantp]

Originally Posted by betablocker

electric cars always confuse me is it really better to fire up a huge powerstation either on fossil fuels or nuclear power compared to using petrol or diesel.

"Better" in what sense? Energy efficiency? Pollution (of some sort ...)? I'm not trying to be picky here but there are so many different angles that one might be able to argue almost anything.

Originally Posted by betablocker

battery technology even massivly better than 10yrs ago still is pretty shocking for use in a car.

I really hope that was intentional ...

Originally Posted by betablocker

tesla barely does 150miles. and thats not even with heaters on and lights etc etc. also batteries have a downward scale of life, everyone knows the more times u use ur ipod or phone laptop after a while your battery life just aint as good as it once was.

i think battery powered cars are a massive white elephant

You could be right.

We may see specific applications - city vehicles and so on, just like electric milkfloats worked well for the task required of them.

Of course there was also the trolley bus solution which, dare I say it, by requiring vehciles to run sequentially also offer options for controlling traffic movement on the public roads. Not necessarily a nice thought.

Under road induction systems might also work- with a secondary benefit of providing infrastructure for heating and de-icing of roads in winter. Could maybe also be part of the national grid infrastructure. They might fry a few bejewelled or reconstructed pedestrians though.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Nordic

I expect Lord Dryson also owns a battery company.

But he does have a point, Motorsport will have to evolve to survive. i dont see wholly electirc cars being the norm for a long while yet either on the road or track, but that is the direction sponsors and car makers want to go, then the sport will follow the money.

Its all about the money and there is a finate amount of oil available, again along way to go before its a problem, that does not mean we should not look to the future now.

While this is a statement of fact, oil is a finite reserve, there is no-one in the oil industry able to tell you just what the finite limit is. Supply of oil itself is not a problem as yet, the problem is one of cost of supply.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Hmmm, so you think that the auto industry will make these dream mobiles for the warmer climates whilst making more realistic vehicles for the northern climates?

Fuel cells- pipe dream.

Electric cars- down south maybe they can sucker some people to be slaves to an electrical outlet, but up here where it can hit sub-zero Fahrenheit for up to a week straight and be a normal night time temperature for two months easily, while automobiles must be able navigate a foot or more snow till plows get all road cleared, electric vehicles would be something out of a Benny Hill skit.

The internal combustion engine isn't going away in your lifetime.

Bob - I agree with some of your comments, yes the IC engine is here for the long term, but fuel cells are certainly not a pipe dream, I currently work in the hybrid design and development industry and let me assure you that fuel cells will soon be in the market place weather you like them or not.

Some good discussions going on here! basically the industry has realised the mild and full hybrids are bad value for money, this is principally linked to the poor (big!) battery technology in the marketplace, there are now several companies that are pushing the boundaries of Lithium Ion and Ultra Caps in terms of size versus power storage, as a result their size (and cost) is set to shrink by quite a big margin. This will come to fruition in the next 2-3 years in a proof of concept form, then that will make a race derivative look more attractive (size wise).

[Tim the Grey]

TBH. Li=Ion is a dead end for cars. As said elsewhere, not enough sources for materials, so OK for cameras, phones, laptops etc. but forget transport. It's not just Lithium, either. One particular element is found 90% within China, and there is only enough for forecast DOMESTIC battery demand, never mind global...

Other power sources required, folks.

[knighty]

I also forgot to mention - you are all talking about fuel cells like they are just a storage device for electricity which is just not the case........there are also liquid and gas hydrogen versions.......the latter (gas) is very attractive for your average punter, all you need is a wind source, you run some electrodes from a wind generator through water, compress the hydrogen gas into cylinders, then transfer the gas to your vehicle which then purges the gas through a fuel cell (not an IC engine (very inefficient!)) which generates electricity and powers the main drive motor........this is already very popular and available technology in europe, with big government funding in place.......believe me!.......potentially you are looking at zero fuel cost.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

TBH. Li=Ion is a dead end for cars. As said elsewhere, not enough sources for materials, so OK for cameras, phones, laptops etc. but forget transport. It's not just Lithium, either. One particular element is found 90% within China, and there is only enough for forecast DOMESTIC battery demand, never mind global...

Other power sources required, folks.

good point - from where I'm sitting the most interest appears to be in ultra capacitors.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by knighty

I also forgot to mention - you are all talking about fuel cells like they are just a storage device for electricity which is just not the case........there are also liquid and gas hydrogen versions.......the latter (gas) is very attractive for your average punter, all you need is a wind source, you run some electrodes from a wind generator through water, compress the hydrogen gas into cylinders, then transfer the gas to your vehicle which then purges the gas through a fuel cell (not an IC engine (very inefficient!)) which generates electricity and powers the main drive motor........this is already very popular and available technology in europe, with big government funding in place.......believe me!.......potentially you are looking at zero fuel cost.

knighty, speaking of alternative fuels, have you heard lately about ECO's efforts for some kind of project this year? Do they still plan to use the Radical with a V8 gas engine? Will we see them? Any insight is appreciated.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by knighty

I also forgot to mention - you are all talking about fuel cells like they are just a storage device for electricity which is just not the case........there are also liquid and gas hydrogen versions.......the latter (gas) is very attractive for your average punter, all you need is a wind source, you run some electrodes from a wind generator through water, compress the hydrogen gas into cylinders, then transfer the gas to your vehicle which then purges the gas through a fuel cell (not an IC engine (very inefficient!)) which generates electricity and powers the main drive motor........this is already very popular and available technology in europe, with big government funding in place.......believe me!.......potentially you are looking at zero fuel cost.

I will probably catch hell for it, but, I am a fan of fuel cells as the next power source. But I believe a liquid hydrogen derived from nuclear power the way to go! Nuclear generation is safe and waste disposal is much more regulated than the ecolgical nightmare that is going on with battery dumping around the world!


L.P.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

TBH. Li=Ion is a dead end for cars. As said elsewhere, not enough sources for materials, so OK for cameras, phones, laptops etc. but forget transport. It's not just Lithium, either. One particular element is found 90% within China, and there is only enough for forecast DOMESTIC battery demand, never mind global...

Other power sources required, folks.

My point exactly.

Save the Lithium for things that fit in our pockets, not for 1000kg+ things that run on wheels.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

knighty, speaking of alternative fuels, have you heard lately about ECO's efforts for some kind of project this year? Do they still plan to use the Radical with a V8 gas engine? Will we see them? Any insight is appreciated.

Last time I spoke to Ian I got the impression he will accept ANY engine which comes for free or at a subsidize price in order to fit into either of his two radicals.....his ideal scenario is a manufacturer backed LMP1 or LMP2 engine......dont laugh, the bloke is seriously connected and I will help him in any way possible with my list of contacts and customers, which is not insignificant...... but for sure, he has realized the V10 diesel is 200Kg over weight which caused the car to handle like a boat........my last advice was to get the car running reliably, possibly to consider running one of the old Nissan V6 3.4Litre LMP675 normally aspirated engines from either AER or IES, not the ideal solution but it will be a good weight and power and bullet proof reliability........either way you can bet your balls he will be back soon.