Andy Soucek crowned Formula 2 Champion

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Spudy

what about the tyres? I think using Avon tyres is a disadvantage as the Bridgestones are a tricky and exotic compound to understand how to get the best out of.

And I do think relationships with the team outside of the engineers is very important from my experience. And pitstops are not easy for drivers at all, a lot can go wrong and even seasoned pros miss their spot even with all their practice, and they stall.

It's easy to compare what each junior formula has or doesn't have in comparison to F1 - F2 has adjustable wings and a boost button, which is presumably a similar experience to KERS. I know KERS may not remain in F1 forever but I am sure you understand my meaning.

Spudy - my understanding is that F2 drivers have had a maximum of 1 or 2 days testing ALL season so I really don't think it is fair to say F2 is 'worse' than other series in giving those with money an advantage. In fact it's fairly obvious that F3 and GP2 have always benefited those who can pay for testing and to race with the best teams.

Once again I am certainly not putting F2 above GP2 or anything like that but you have to have a balanced view and be fair to a championship that has just got off the ground. I was a little sceptical when it first came about but as I said previously, I have been pretty impressed with the first season...

[Keyfabe]

Campos says he wants either De la rosa or Marc Gene, surely Soucek is a better bet

[jab]

Soucek has what F1 experience exactly? 1 test, soon to become 2 tests...

DLR and Gene have been driving F1 cars for a decade. I think they're the better bets

Besides, it's between them only for 1 seat. The other will probably go to Petrov or Perez, although Piquet's been mentioned now

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Keyfabe

Campos says he wants either De la rosa or Marc Gene, surely Soucek is a better bet

I would turn that round and say surely Soucek is not the better bet at all. He isn't in the same league as DLR.

[Keyfabe]

Originally Posted by runshaw

I would turn that round and say surely Soucek is not the better bet at all. He isn't in the same league as DLR.

you mean Souceks not a journeyman like Pedro

[ivanalesi]

Is Soucek full of $ to be in contention for this seat.

[dampsquid]

Originally Posted by BuiltForSpeed

Ghinzani - Your views are pretty extreme and perverse I must say, and defy all logic. I shouldn't rise to it, but here goes....

Soucek has comprehensively beaten this year:

Jousse - Renault 3.5 runner up
Wickens - FBMW USA Champion & winner in A1GP, Renault 3.5 and Euro F3
Bortolotti - Italian F3 Champion
Sanchez - Spanish F3 Champion
Hohenthal - British F3 race winner
Aleshin - Renault 3.5 race winner
Eng - FBMW World Final winner

He's been a class act all year and dominated a very close category of racing by being THE BEST DRIVER. F2 has also given young drivers like Kazim Vasiliauskas the chance to make an instant impact and he's done it through the skill in his driving, not the size of his wallet. He could well have been lost in F3 I suspect.

I'd bet money on Soucek doing an excellent job in the test with Williams - F2 certainly needs him to do well to maintain credibility for the championship - but the 'Super FPA' criticisms are starting to look a little thin and tiresome.

Certainly sounds like BuildForSpeed is a bit of an F2 ringer on here so will take the above drivers credentials with a little bit of spin as well as the starter for this thread!!

Soucek is certainly a worthy Champion this year just by his consistency but winning this series has not done his F1 hopes any better. He does seem to get the best support than any of the other drivers and do we know how many test days he has done durin the season? Im sure he is able to afford the best technical support at trackside as well, there are no rules against this so no surprises he has done so well. Not sure how many engineers he had but certainly a lot meeting him after the races, money is always going to put you at the font in one way or another.

Think he is the most "professional" driver in the pack so think it was in the series best interests to have him as the Champion, the Red Bull chaps have not really done so well, will they be back next year or putting their budget into a bigger and better publicised series?

[Mak]

Originally Posted by dampsquid

Certainly sounds like BuildForSpeed is a bit of an F2 ringer on here so will take the above drivers credentials with a little bit of spin as well as the starter for this thread!!

Soucek is certainly a worthy Champion this year just by his consistency but winning this series has not done his F1 hopes any better. He does seem to get the best support than any of the other drivers and do we know how many test days he has done durin the season? Im sure he is able to afford the best technical support at trackside as well, there are no rules against this so no surprises he has done so well. Not sure how many engineers he had but certainly a lot meeting him after the races, money is always going to put you at the font in one way or another.

Think he is the most "professional" driver in the pack so think it was in the series best interests to have him as the Champion, the Red Bull chaps have not really done so well, will they be back next year or putting their budget into a bigger and better publicised series?

Please explain what you mean by the above. Which driver credentials are wrong? I heard that there has been no extra tests for F2 cars during this season, other than official tests which all drivers attended. Do you know differently? Also the F2 engineers are very good, and as with all series you do, drivers bring driver coaches, advisers etc.. so what is different with F2. You have made a lot of open comments but not backed anything up?

[dampsquid]

Originally Posted by Mak

Please explain what you mean by the above. Which driver credentials are wrong? I heard that there has been no extra tests for F2 cars during this season, other than official tests which all drivers attended. Do you know differently? Also the F2 engineers are very good, and as with all series you do, drivers bring driver coaches, advisers etc.. so what is different with F2. You have made a lot of open comments but not backed anything up?

Please read my comments again as I have not once said the credentials are wrong. I said there seemed to be some spin in the driver results that BuiltForSpeed was saying to make them sound better than maybe they are:

Aleshin - Renault 3.5 race winner = he has indeed one 1 race, but has made 50 starts over 3 seasons, so no so impresive.

Hohenthal - British F3 race winner = has a race victory but in 38 starts over 2 seasons. Highest championship position was only 7th.

Sanchez - Spanish F3 Champion = Only 5 drivers competed all the seasons races in the Class A catergory. When Jamie Algersauri competed in 8 races he won 3 of them and blew Sanchez away in results. Is Spanish F3 that good, does anyone know who is leading this years standings??

You can verify this data over on wikipedia. Im not saying these are bad drivers but saying they are good just because they have a race win does not tell the full story IMO.

Im not sure but I dont think F2 allows extra tests but if you have the money you can go and pay for a circuit for practice. Soucek also has his old GP2 enginner supporting him and I bet he doesnt come cheap. Why does he need another enginner, are the F2 enginners not as good as his one or too busy looking after lots of drivers?

http://motorsport.com/photos/select...._1&Y=2009&O=96

Although you can run in this series cheaply, you need more money than the standard budget to be able to compete at the top so is it a bit false economy really?!

Does that back up my previous comments?

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by dampsquid

Does that back up my previous comments?

Not really. You highlighted Aleshin, Hohenthal and Sanchez but didn't mention the other drivers BuiltForSpeed talked about. And your ramblings are truly selective. You mention that Hohenthal has 1 race win in British F3 which is wrong, he has two. You neglected to say how he set a lap record in his first F3 race and managed to finish 'only 7th' in the standings despite missing the last 6 races in the season. You also neglected to mention his 7 wins and Formula Renault UK title.

You didn't mention that Aleshin finished 6th on his GP2 debut despite starting outside the top 20. Neither did you talk about Bortolotti who Ferrari (!) are keeping tabs on. Or Wickens who Red Bull have, or Jousse- look at his pace in Superleague Formula at the weekend. If you don't have information about Soucek doing extra testing, then don't bring it up, otherwise your comments are meaningless.

You get your information from Wikipedia, enough said.

[dampsquid]

Originally Posted by runshaw

Not really. You highlighted Aleshin, Hohenthal and Sanchez but didn't mention the other drivers BuiltForSpeed talked about. And your ramblings are truly selective. You mention that Hohenthal has 1 race win in British F3 which is wrong, he has two. You neglected to say how he set a lap record in his first F3 race and managed to finish 'only 7th' in the standings despite missing the last 6 races in the season. You also neglected to mention his 7 wins and Formula Renault UK title.

You didn't mention that Aleshin finished 6th on his GP2 debut despite starting outside the top 20. Neither did you talk about Bortolotti who Ferrari (!) are keeping tabs on. Or Wickens who Red Bull have, or Jousse- look at his pace in Superleague Formula at the weekend. If you don't have information about Soucek doing extra testing, then don't bring it up, otherwise your comments are meaningless.

You get your information from Wikipedia, enough said.

I didnt mention all of the drivers because I said there was some amount of spin regarding some drivers previous results, not ALL of them!

I dont think one result in GP2 for Aleshin is really going to make him an F1 candidate. If he was that good then why wa she not snapped up by a GP2 team this year?

Wickens has a great racing CV and his 2 wins at the start of F2 were brilliant but he did not live up to that early promise. It seems that when he is struggling there is an aggresive side to his driving, just ask Alex Brundle after his Donnington accident.

Jousse is obviously a talented guy and this is why he is getting drives in other series like Le Mans and Superleague but personally I was a little disappointed with some of his drives in F2 when I think he should have been closer to the front. Im surprised there is no mention of his Superleague performance on the F2 website, or would that be seen as negative publicity??

As for Hohenthal, you are correct that he won 2 races (and not 1 that I said) and he missed 6 races but if you look at the championship standings, with his previous race performance in mind he would have climbed up the standings much further anyway. Certainly not into the top 3 which the top drivers need to be in to get noticed.

Lastly, my point about being able to practice at other circuits is more a reference to some drivers having more money than others so they are able to get an advantage over other drivers who dont have the money. I dont know if Soucek tested elsewhere but Im sure that some others did during the season and whilst it is within the rules and done in all series, it does make a mockery of the low budget series and even playing field that F2 is trying to promote.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by dampsquid

Jousse is obviously a talented guy and this is why he is getting drives in other series like Le Mans and Superleague but personally I was a little disappointed with some of his drives in F2 when I think he should have been closer to the front. Im surprised there is no mention of his Superleague performance on the F2 website, or would that be seen as negative publicity??

I would say his performance in Superleague must be positive for F2. You have said that you were disappointed by some of his drives in F2 but then he was able to get a podium in his first Superleague race against (some) decent drivers.

We could sit here and have a childish argument that if he beat Pantano or Pizzonia, but then Jousse was beaten by this Lithuanian kid in F2, then this Kazim must be pretty good?!? Of course it doesn't work like this but thats the point of a good debate

Anyway I thought this thread was about Andy Soucek!! Does anyone know when the Williams test will be?

[strider]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Anyway I thought this thread was about Andy Soucek!! Does anyone know when the Williams test will be?

Is the season over then? I haven't been paying much attention.

Seriously, Soucek will find it a bit of a shock when he gets back in a decent single-seater.

I'd guess the test won't be until after the F1 season is finished.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by strider

Is the season over then? I haven't been paying much attention.

Seriously, Soucek will find it a bit of a shock when he gets back in a decent single-seater.

I'd guess the test won't be until after the F1 season is finished.

Not sure that I would say that the F2 car is not a decent single seater. If you are not paying attention then it seems a bit hard to make that judgement. They have had some teething problems and have been developing the car during the season. The original car from Wlliams was actually very good and despite the obvious early reliability problems which all totally new race car series would go through. (especially with the short lead time) All development costs have been spread out over a full field of 25 cars and not over that of a 2 to 4 car team.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Mak

Not sure that I would say that the F2 car is not a decent single seater. If you are not paying attention then it seems a bit hard to make that judgement. They have had some teething problems and have been developing the car during the season. The original car from Wlliams was actually very good and despite the obvious early reliability problems which all totally new race car series would go through. (especially with the short lead time) All development costs have been spread out over a full field of 25 cars and not over that of a 2 to 4 car team.

That first line was flippant and I should really have added a smilie.

The truth is that having initially been very interested in F2 and thinking that it was going to be a very serious category, to me, and obviously this is just my personal opinion, it didn't work out that way. I did in fact keep an eye on it, but it just seemed to lose importance. I know quite a few of the drivers who took part in it this year and I would love to sit down with them over a pint and find out exactly what they thought of it. All F2 has done for some of them is keep them racing this year. They should have had far better results and I'm sure it's not because they lost their ability or previously had an unfair advantage.

Put it another way. Where do you think F2 sits now in relation to GP2, WSR and F3? I know budget considerations are a major factor and in that respect F2 has been marketed very well and very cleverly. One would would expect no less of JP. But in terms of performance and what it teaches you, F2 just doesn't deserve to be recognised as a step down from F1. It definitely has its niche in the market place, but not as an F1 feeder series, which is what it should be. That's why most people refer to it as Super FPA, which is about right.

I'm sure it's a decent enough chassis. Williams wouldn't turn out anything that wasn't, but it was built to strict budget constraints and probably to a specific performance specification.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by strider

That first line was flippant and I should really have added a smilie.

The truth is that having initially been very interested in F2 and thinking that it was going to be a very serious category, to me, and obviously this is just my personal opinion, it didn't work out that way. I did in fact keep an eye on it, but it just seemed to lose importance. I know quite a few of the drivers who took part in it this year and I would love to sit down with them over a pint and find out exactly what they thought of it. All F2 has done for some of them is keep them racing this year. They should have had far better results and I'm sure it's not because they lost their ability or previously had an unfair advantage.

Put it another way. Where do you think F2 sits now in relation to GP2, WSR and F3? I know budget considerations are a major factor and in that respect F2 has been marketed very well and very cleverly. One would would expect no less of JP. But in terms of performance and what it teaches you, F2 just doesn't deserve to be recognised as a step down from F1. It definitely has its niche in the market place, but not as an F1 feeder series, which is what it should be. That's why most people refer to it as Super FPA, which is about right.

I'm sure it's a decent enough chassis. Williams wouldn't turn out anything that wasn't, but it was built to strict budget constraints and probably to a specific performance specification.

Strider, what car do you drive? I drive a VW golf but would much rather drive a Ferrari. If the Ferrari was my only option, then I could'nt afford to own a car. As it is I get to drive and every day, gain more experience and get better. Not as fast as the Ferrari but I still get better.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Mak

Strider, what car do you drive? I drive a VW golf but would much rather drive a Ferrari. If the Ferrari was my only option, then I couldn't afford to own a car. As it is I get to drive and every day, gain more experience and get better. Not as fast as the Ferrari but I still get better.

I get your point, Mak, and it's a fair one, but I think we'd better just agree to disagree where F2 is concerned.

If there's a stampede of good drivers to sign up for F2 next year, then I'll be wrong.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mak

I drive a VW golf but would much rather drive a Ferrari. If the Ferrari was my only option, then I could'nt afford to own a car. As it is I get to drive and every day, gain more experience and get better. Not as fast as the Ferrari but I still get better.

I so want to accept that analogy .... but feel it is only partly true.

Yes you get better at driving the Golf (or so one would of course hope) and that experuience would likely transfer to anything similar and perhaps to the next level up (Front wheel drive) with good success.

But would it put you in good shape to leap straight into a Ferrari?

There are a couple of mid season F1 additions this year whose experiences suggest it might be a little more challenging than that these days. I'm not sure why that should be but I presume the testing ban has not helped them at all. It could be something else though.

There seem to be (and always have been) a lot of drivers who, no doubt for many different and personal reasons stand out in lower formulae and vanish as they move to higher levels. Yet there are others who do little to stand out at the lower, less powerful, end but seem to come alive if they get a higher level, more powerful opportunity. (And of course here are those who do well all the way through their early careers and progress convincingly to the pinnacle series.)

If Soucek gets his chance, given his realtively broad previous expeience anyway, we may get some clues about the potential for F2/SPA as a feeder championship for F1.

That said I suspect that the F2 idea, form the FIA's perspective, is more about gaining acceptance for a one make approach (that might ultimately be extended to F1) than as a driver development ladder, at least it seems to be that way for now.

[strider]

I have been looking through this thread and came across this extract from an earlier post:

Originally Posted by dampsquid

I'm not sure but I don't think F2 allows extra tests but if you have the money you can go and pay for a circuit for practice. Soucek also has his old GP2 engineer supporting him and I bet he doesn't come cheap. Why does he need another engineer, are the F2 engineers not as good as his one or too busy looking after lots of drivers?

http://motorsport.com/photos/select...._1&Y=2009&O=96

Although you can run in this series cheaply, you need more money than the standard budget to be able to compete at the top so is it a bit false economy really?!

No-one jumped forward to deny what dampsquid said was true, so for the moment I'm believing him.

I had a look at the photos in the link and, sure enough, there is one of Andy Miller, who engineered Soucek in GP2 when he was with DPR. Andy is massively experienced in many levels of single-seater racing.

So what's the truth? I understood it was one F2 engineer per three cars and not always the same engineer for the same cars.

But if you're allowed to hire your own engineer and have his exclusive services, that's a massive advantage and shouldn't be allowed. No wonder Soucek won if that's what happened.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by strider

I have been looking through this thread and came across this extract from an earlier post:No-one jumped forward to deny what dampsquid said was true, so for the moment I'm believing him.

I had a look at the photos in the link and, sure enough, there is one of Andy Miller, who engineered Soucek in GP2 when he was with DPR. Andy is massively experienced in many levels of single-seater racing.

So what's the truth? I understood it was one F2 engineer per three cars and not always the same engineer for the same cars.

But if you're allowed to hire your own engineer and have his exclusive services, that's a massive advantage and shouldn't be allowed. No wonder Soucek won if that's what happened.

not stalking you strider!
In formula 2 as in all formula's a driver can bring to the circuits who ever they want. ( engineer, driver coach , manager ect.) I believe that all car changes must come throught a drivers F2 engineer to the F2 mechanic. Also during sessions the only communications drivers have is with the mechanic or F2 engineer. Any assistance from outside source must come indirectly throught the driver (Out of session). I must also say that the F2 engineers are all of similar experience to Andy. Several with F1 experience. The F2 engineers also have a further advantage as they are able to access all changes to all cars (not just their group)throughout the weekend.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Mak

not stalking you strider!
In formula 2 as in all formula's a driver can bring to the circuits who ever they want. ( engineer, driver coach , manager ect.) I believe that all car changes must come throught a drivers F2 engineer to the F2 mechanic. Also during sessions the only communications drivers have is with the mechanic or F2 engineer. Any assistance from outside source must come indirectly through the driver (Out of session). I must also say that the F2 engineers are all of similar experience to Andy. Several with F1 experience. The F2 engineers also have a further advantage as they are able to access all changes to all cars (not just their group) throughout the weekend.

No problem, Mak, I was expecting to hear from you. If you were to look back to the first announcement of F2, you would find that I posted several very enthusiastic comments. It was only subsequently that I became disillusioned. If you (or anyone else for that matter) can persuade me that I am wrong, then fine.

However, I draw a definite distinction between a driver bringing along friends and family, manager, driver coach etc and a separate engineer. I can't think of any other formula where that is allowed. Indeed, I think it would be taken as an insult and be completely unwelcome. However, I am thinking of formulae where teams are involved, not formulae like F2 and FPA where everything is supposedly (as I thought) run in-house. If you are agreeing that Andy Miller was indeed Soucek's personal engineer and had to operate through the cumbersome procedure you describe, then I am amazed. Are you sure that Andy was not just one of the FPA engineers who happened to look after Soucek all the time? Even that would be outside the procedure that I understood applied.

[JohnMiller]

Many of the F2 drivers have consultant engineers paid for by them.

[Francis Albert]

Originally Posted by Mak

not stalking you strider!
In formula 2 as in all formula's a driver can bring to the circuits who ever they want. ( engineer, driver coach , manager ect.) I believe that all car changes must come throught a drivers F2 engineer to the F2 mechanic. Also during sessions the only communications drivers have is with the mechanic or F2 engineer. Any assistance from outside source must come indirectly throught the driver (Out of session). I must also say that the F2 engineers are all of similar experience to Andy. Several with F1 experience. The F2 engineers also have a further advantage as they are able to access all changes to all cars (not just their group)throughout the weekend.

I also think this is how it goes. One other thing is that the "personal" engineers can have access to the data of the driver they are working for as well, I suppose simply because the drivers themselves have access to it.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by strider

No problem, Mak, I was expecting to hear from you. If you were to look back to the first announcement of F2, you would find that I posted several very enthusiastic comments. It was only subsequently that I became disillusioned. If you (or anyone else for that matter) can persuade me that I am wrong, then fine.

However, I draw a definite distinction between a driver bringing along friends and family, manager, driver coach etc and a separate engineer. I can't think of any other formula where that is allowed. Indeed, I think it would be taken as an insult and be completely unwelcome. However, I am thinking of formulae where teams are involved, not formulae like F2 and FPA where everything is supposedly (as I thought) run in-house. If you are agreeing that Andy Miller was indeed Soucek's personal engineer and had to operate through the cumbersome procedure you describe, then I am amazed. Are you sure that Andy was not just one of the FPA engineers who happened to look after Soucek all the time? Even that would be outside the procedure that I understood applied.

I beg to differ. I have on many occassions at the bequest of a driver been asked to support a teams engineers. If I have done this it has always been with the teams approval. This includes British F3 among other team formulae. I have also been in the opposite position where a driver has wanted to bring some trusted technical support, and as long as it is positive support (not ego driven)it has worked fine. Some times two heads are better than one, and sometimes too many cooks spoil the broth... But the option is always there.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Mak

I beg to differ. I have on many occasions at the bequest of a driver been asked to support a teams engineers. If I have done this it has always been with the teams approval. This includes British F3 among other team formulae. I have also been in the opposite position where a driver has wanted to bring some trusted technical support, and as long as it is positive support (not ego driven)it has worked fine. Some times two heads are better than one, and sometimes too many cooks spoil the broth... But the option is always there.

OK, we'd better leave it there and agree to differ. I'm getting an F2 feeling about this discussion now.