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Old 23 Oct 2012, 23:52 (Ref:3156774)   #1
Mr Revhead
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Last "real" car to win Bathurst

So anyway, does anyone know when the last Commode/Falcon that was built from a factory shell/car won Bathurst?

I'm going to take a stab at Dick Johnsons EB or Perkins VP. But possibly Percy/Grice in a VL!
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Old 23 Oct 2012, 23:58 (Ref:3156778)   #2
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Personally i don't see the issue, but VT's were built from the production shell - which stretches through to VZ.
VE's were the first of project blueprint, with body panels built around the cage.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 00:01 (Ref:3156780)   #3
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Well, the "real" car would have been the last Group A event wouldn't it?........Nissan GTR.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 00:12 (Ref:3156785)   #4
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No issue ninny. VTs you say were built from shells?
Adding panels to a cage is not really what I mean though.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 00:14 (Ref:3156786)   #5
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Oh and I'm pretty sure well before blueprint they built them up from panels added to spaceframes not shells. But im only going by what I recall
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 00:21 (Ref:3156788)   #6
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Oh and I'm pretty sure well before blueprint they built them up from panels added to spaceframes not shells. But im only going by what I recall
That rings true: I think I recall seeing a Perkins VT on the rotisserie, and I can't recall whether they cut and tubbed a shell, then caged it, or whether they were adding panels to the cage at that stage.

They've certainly come a long way from the Group C & A days, although even back then, Holden GMP&A could supply a specc'd shell... and some Ford runners were able to walk Falcon shells down the line...

Even Series Production had its cheater cars - the works XY GTHO's were (at least the first 1971 batch, as Moffat's replacement unit for the Bathurst winner that crashed at Adelaide was an old pilot-build unit from the testing ground) a bit spesh...
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 00:48 (Ref:3156797)   #7
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The last real car to win the Bathurst, I think it would Colin Bond, Tony Roberts, Holden Monaro 350, in 1969.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 00:53 (Ref:3156798)   #8
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The last real car to win the Bathurst, I think it would Colin Bond, Tony Roberts, Holden Monaro 350, in 1969.
Wasn't it built from a "cheater" South Australian shell? Had a feeling that it wasn't quite production line sourced, like the other works cars of the era.

1973 Bathurst winner was built from an RPO83 ordered from the production line, I think 1976 winner was the first L34 built or something from memory, 1977 winner was built from a "body in white" following Moffat's 1976 transporter fire, 1978 and 1979 cars were GMP&A shells, 1981 winner was a bare body build, with brackets and deaden omitted on the line... the others? Don't know, but they were as real as you were going to get I'd say.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 00:53 (Ref:3156799)   #9
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what is a "real" car

seems such a broad term

I would put to you that a real car has never won bathurst (the 1000 or its equivelent), in fact i'm not sure one has ever competed. they might have in the earlier 12 hour or 24 hour races though

they keep wanting to put a roof on them
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 01:22 (Ref:3156806)   #10
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Thought I defined it in my first post... But to clarify I mean a car that started life as either a road car, or a shell off the factory floor. Yes even a walked down the line one. As long as it was a complete shell before cage was added. Not a space frame with panels hung off it. Those from the 70s are far far earlier than the last.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 01:27 (Ref:3156808)   #11
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Thought I defined it in my first post... But to clarify I mean a car that started life as either a road car, or a shell off the factory floor. Yes even a walked down the line one. As long as it was a complete shell before cage was added. Not a space frame with panels hung off it. Those from the 70s are far far earlier than the last.
yeah you defined it that way, but its a narrow definition. I prefer a different one
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 01:57 (Ref:3156813)   #12
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yeah you defined it that way, but its a narrow definition. I prefer a different one
so go start your own thread then... :-)
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 02:08 (Ref:3156815)   #13
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Peckstar, when asked 1 + 1 do you reply "rabbit"? Lol ;p
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 02:20 (Ref:3156817)   #14
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Peckstar, when asked 1 + 1 do you reply "rabbit"? Lol ;p
you didnt ask 1 +1 , you asked about the Last "real" car to win Bathurst

The heading is "real" car, you put the quotation marks's in the heading, therfore you have opened it up to interpretation.

you have defined it, which is fine, I just prefer a different interpretation of "real"

the discusion of the thread has show that its not easy to interpret "real" as the answer shoudl be easy, but even under your definition the answer is still vague. heck we cant even be sure about the 1969 winner is "real".

my defintion of "real" is that it has never been won by a real car
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 02:43 (Ref:3156823)   #15
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Not trying to argue, was trying to be funny. Nonetheless you do understand the meaning of my definition. So hopefully someone knows the answer. Maybe I should ask supercars Saturday sleuthing
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 02:45 (Ref:3156825)   #16
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Why don't you use 'production car' as the definition, I am sure that it will make it a little easier.

I am sure everyone is pretty clear and can agree on what 'production car' means in racing terms, I think this is what the OP was suggesting anyway, before the PC people got involved.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 03:05 (Ref:3156827)   #17
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Why don't you use 'production car' as the definition, I am sure that it will make it a little easier.

I am sure everyone is pretty clear and can agree on what 'production car' means in racing terms, I think this is what the OP was suggesting anyway, before the PC people got involved.
Becasue i dont think production car was the answer that was wanted. He wanted something that was based on a production shell
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 03:14 (Ref:3156832)   #18
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"Improved Production" perhaps?
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 05:07 (Ref:3156843)   #19
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Ah no, I'm pretty sure the first supercars were built from complete shells. They were certainly not production cars though.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 11:22 (Ref:3156958)   #20
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they keep wanting to put a roof on them


I thought it was a good line. Nice one. I may steal that for future use.

I'm guessing for the purposes of the thread we're talking here about something that started life on the production line. Even then it may have been a specially reinforced seam-welded shell with nothing attached. A question that could have 24 different correct answers depending on just where you draw the line. Perhaps everyone should give their nominations and then we'll add a poll? Just a thought.
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Old 24 Oct 2012, 14:01 (Ref:3157023)   #21
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stock as a rock production car :P
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Old 25 Oct 2012, 04:35 (Ref:3157300)   #22
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I reckon the last real one was the tow truck back in 92.
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Old 25 Oct 2012, 05:59 (Ref:3157313)   #23
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I reckon the last real one was the tow truck back in 92.
IIRC Gibson's GTR's were built from used units off a car lot in Tokyo, so they're eligible for starters.
I would say that if the VY was the first to be put together around the cage, then we're looking at shell-built cars up until 2001-ish.

Given that the discussion has been arguing for a couple of pages now, just how applicable the production shell is, is a moot point.

Although it didn't win anything, Garry Wilmington's EB was very much a product of its production car origins, being a couple of half-cuts from cabs IIRC...
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Old 25 Oct 2012, 11:03 (Ref:3157399)   #24
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2004 Greg Murphys car.

I think the car was rather old and started life as a early hrt VT, and was then upgraded many times and handed down to kmart.

Thats my guess.
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Old 25 Oct 2012, 11:15 (Ref:3157400)   #25
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What really annoys me about this place sometimes is all of the armchair historians. I've been a member for 9 years, and for at least the past 5, there's been a growing movement of people who yearn for "Group A", or "REAL" cars, or "Production" cars.

I am a huge fan of the ATCC - In any form. It attracts the best in our nation, to compete in whatever the regulation of the day is touring car (and despite what some of you may think, our current "Blueprint" car is all but a Commodore VN Group A touring car with some nice bits!). However, I also appreciate other forms of motorsport in the country.

If I had a dollar for every time I'd heard mention of a "REAL" car winning a race, I'd be a billionaire. YET - I am 300% sure that the majority of these VERY same people are not out there supporting other forms of national or state class.

We have classes struggling for exposure, sponsorship and rounds because they simply aren't "Popular". The last Shannon's round at Eastern Creek, for example, would have had at best a few thousand people.

People here whinge, ***** and complain about a lack of "REAL" cars, yet refuse to properly support Aus GT, The Manufacturers Championship (Production) and other forms of REAL racing.

I would hazard a guess - If those of you on here REALLY wanted to see production, real, "Race on sunday, Sell on Monday" cars running around in a nationally televised championship, you would indeed get this, IF YOU WENT TO SEE THEM AT THE TRACK!!!!!

Until such a time as you can be arsed to do so, can you stop gilling REAL enthusiasts screens with gutter mouth and garbage, and accept that until you join us at race meets, the current formula is here to stay, and enjoy it for what it is - motor racing vehicles designed to look like road cars with some fantastic racers behind the wheel attempting to entertain us.

Apologies - This has been building for a LONG time.
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