[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 21

[Aysedasi]

Having watched 'Le Mans '66' a few days ago, and knowing the Old Man's view of drivers, if Enzo had still been alive running the team, Vettel would have been out by now....

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well I think it’s clear that Ferrari might not be so keen to make Vettel the clear no 1 now. It might not make Seb happy, but then it’s not his team

Indeed he no longer seems deserving of number 1 status...but can he be made to see this? Can his errors be used to convince him to accept a no.2 role?

You replace him and you risk the new driver having delusions of grandeur moments til they settle in and if you pick someone to be a clear number 2 will that get you ahead of the Merc pairing?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Having watched 'Le Mans '66' a few days ago, and knowing the Old Man's view of drivers, if Enzo had still been alive running the team, Vettel would have been out by now....

That's true, but that was a long time ago. The Jean Todt era introduced the team to the idea that everything was built around the favoured No 1 driver. This year Binotto seems to have taken a more egalitarian approach. Most teams can make this work (most of the time) but it does depend on the drivers buying into it properly. Clearly Vettel hasn't.

[Taxi645]

I'll update the list (well, someone has to do it):



June 2017 Bakuh (Vettel Hamilton incident)
Sept 2017 Singapore (Vettel, Verstappen, Raikkonen incident)
Oct 2017 Mexico (Verstappen vs Vettel, drives his front wing off at T2)

Jun 2018 France (Hits Bottas at T1)
Jul 2018 Germany (goes off in the wet)
Sept 2018 Monza (spun after contact with Hamilton)
Oct 2018 Japan (drives into Verstappen who’s ahead)
Oct 2018 COTA (runs into Ricciardo who’s ahead)

Mar 2019 Bahrein (goes on the throttle too early in fight with Hamilton)
Jun 2019 (misses braking point, cut’s chicane and gets penalty)
Juli 2019 Silverstone (Rams Verstappen off the track)
Sep 2019 Spins at Ascari, comes dangerously back on track and takes out Stroll
Nov 2019 Takes Both Ferrari's out by wanting to push over his team mate


He's more of a liability than an asset by now.

I'm pretty sure Ricciardo will have a "Ferrari clause" in his Renault contract. If Vettel doesn't see the pattern, maybe Binotto will...

[chillibowl]

Ric seems to be going through his own bout of overdriving (or under driving?) these days. perhaps just overcompensating for a poor year/car.

but lets say he gets back to speed in a top car, dont Ferrari run the same risk of two drivers fighting it out for no. 1 status. also must be said this is a situation that Ric once chaffed at, and ultimately walked away from, while at RB.

part of me says that Ferrari need to make Merc pay for only signing Bottas to these 1 year deals...if they steal him away they hurt Merc while bringing on a capable race winner and known team player.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Ric seems to be going through his own bout of overdriving (or under driving?) these days. perhaps just overcompensating for a poor year/car.

but lets say he gets back to speed in a top car, dont Ferrari run the same risk of two drivers fighting it out for no. 1 status. also must be said this is a situation that Ric once chaffed at, and ultimately walked away from, while at RB.

Perhaps, but he did handle that situation better than Vettel has done till now. On top of that, I still consider Verstappen the faster driver (for the moment) compared to Leclerc. I reckon Leclerc will have a very hard time to beat Ricciardo.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

part of me says that Ferrari need to make Merc pay for only signing Bottas to these 1 year deals...if they steal him away they hurt Merc while bringing on a capable race winner and known team player.

Very true, just that it won't help Ferrari 2020.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I reckon Leclerc will have a very hard time to beat Ricciardo.

to see this match up play out maybe best argument to see Ric replace SV.

from purely a fan perspective (are you not entertained -gladiator reference), not a lot of value in seeing another season of SV vs Leclerc hurting each other. i want to see a proper title challenge next year.

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Very true, just that it won't help Ferrari 2020.

2021 baby!

[S griffin]

Ricciardo can be a match for anyone in the same car, he’s that good. And when you see what team mates he has had, it does say something

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

The first SC seemed odd. Bottas did a great job in where he parked the car. My speculation is twofold. First, maybe the recovery vehicle had to peek just a bit beyond the barrier to get at the car?

Autosport report exactly that: since Bianchi, recovery vehicle on track side of barriers = immediate safety car. It then took a while for lapped cars to unlap themselves.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...bottas-parking

[seanyb505]

https://twitter.com/PipoDerani/statu...10943754227713

This is the correct take.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

https://twitter.com/PipoDerani/statu...10943754227713

This is the correct take.

Lol! I can't help wonder if someone needs to re-dub the trailer for the movie. Particular the fight scene about 15 seconds in. It would be Vettel and Leclerc rolling around in the grass while the fans watch.

https://youtu.be/I3h9Z89U9ZA?t=15

Richard

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Perhaps, but he did handle that situation better than Vettel has done till now. On top of that, I still consider Verstappen the faster driver (for the moment) compared to Leclerc. I reckon Leclerc will have a very hard time to beat Ricciardo.



Very true, just that it won't help Ferrari 2020.

I wouldn't say so. Leclerc is only getting stronger so the writing is on the wall for Seb. The younger driver's speed is already very consistent, Vettel's is very much the opposite. This says to me Leclerc is in control of his car and abilities whereas the 4x champ (now chump?) does not have it in him to better Leclerc overall.
Even though Vettel should be removed, I would not put Lec and Ricc together they are too similar in talent and guts and that might set off amother spat!
Ferrari have their new star already, they just need a dutiful and solid wingman or they risk losing Charles for '21 imo.

[djinvicta]

And just think.. give it a year or two and we will watch the same scenario at Merc or Ferrari, wherever LH is..as some young gun will take over his No1 status.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I wouldn't say so. Leclerc is only getting stronger so the writing is on the wall for Seb. The younger driver's speed is already very consistent, Vettel's is very much the opposite. This says to me Leclerc is in control of his car and abilities whereas the 4x champ (now chump?) does not have it in him to better Leclerc overall.
Even though Vettel should be removed, I would not put Lec and Ricc together they are too similar in talent and guts and that might set off amother spat!
Ferrari have their new star already, they just need a dutiful and solid wingman or they risk losing Charles for '21 imo.

I see three options:

1 Keep things as they are - the worst option IMO, a dead end one could even argue.
2 A fast but 2nd driver - I agree that would be a good option, but probably only Hulkenberg available for that role.
3 Ricciardo - it would be a risky choice, but still much better than option 1, which would be equal to throwing another year away.

Ricciardo might have not liked the situation at RB but at least he kept performing. At least he won't short circuit his head when things don't go his way.

Let me ask you this, with Vettel's track record the last few years, would you have him as your 2nd man in 2021? If the answer to that question is no, why thamen mess around another year in 2020? Both options are better than keeping tbings as they are, but I would consider giving the Leclerc - Ricciardo duo an shot in 2020 a better approach than keeping everything the same

[leothedrummer]

The first time since Germany 1994 with two drivers getting their first podium in the same race! Has only happened 5 times in the past 40 years - awesome job Gasly and Sainz.

https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiq...ronologie.aspx

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

The first SC seemed odd. Bottas did a great job in where he parked the car. My speculation is twofold. First, maybe the recovery vehicle had to peek just a bit beyond the barrier to get at the car? Second, we seem to continue to have issues in which drivers can't respect the need to be careful for local yellows (such as car recovery). Both may have triggered the SC.

FOM have stated the car was stuck and could not be rolled back. The lift truck was required and had to actually go past the barrier, this safety car was required by the safety protocols.

[GT6]

Please can all F1 races be that good, after some very boring races this season that one was just what F1 needed.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GT6

Please can all F1 races be that good, after some very boring races this season that one was just what F1 needed.

To achieve this we needed
Stable rules that allowed three teams to be close, although all cars look the same
Complicated cars that mean you have to manage pace through a lap (Hamilton battery) and May breakdown (Bottas)
Penalties so we have people fight through the pack
DRS
Tyres of different compounds
SC
Drivers who have weaknesses

[Lancsbreaker]

I note from the Times this morning that Vettel and Leclerc have been "ordered" to attend Maranello this week for "crisis talks" to resolve the situation. Apparently Binotto spoke to each driver individually after the race, but the two have not spoken to each other.....

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Autosport report exactly that: since Bianchi, recovery vehicle on track side of barriers = immediate safety car. It then took a while for lapped cars to unlap themselves.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...bottas-parking

I may be missing something, but wasn't the VSC introduced as a response to the Bianchi crash? And surely that wouldn't have been too much of a problem considering how out of the way the car was

And also the extended laps is all the more reason to get rid of the SC free pass rule. If you're a lap behind, that's your problem

[schanche]

I personally would love to see Vettel out, too many mistakes over the past two seasons surprised Ferrari have kept him in just look at Gasly out in half a season. Binnito needs to drop the axe and while at it have a word with Le clerc yes a talent but to seems to have the attitude that he is the almighty at the moment and that the team revolves around him. I think he is heading for a shock in the future seems too careless. Replacement for Vettel got to be Ricardio a talent wasting away at Renault but what would it take to snatch him away from Renault maybe a deal where Ferrari do a deal to offer hulkenberg (take him on as a reserve) loan him to Renault��

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I may be missing something, but wasn't the VSC introduced as a response to the Bianchi crash? And surely that wouldn't have been too much of a problem considering how out of the way the car was

And also the extended laps is all the more reason to get rid of the SC free pass rule. If you're a lap behind, that's your problem

There are two subtly different factors here, and both need to be considered.

You are right that the VSC was brought in after the Bianchi crash - but that is used when there is a requirement to slow the whole field down immediately.
The regulations were also reviewed and it was deemed that whenever a crane is on track, then a full SC is deployed.

In the case of Bottas, the first question asked by Race Control would be - do we need to slow the whole field immediately?
No - so the VSC was not used.

The next question would be - do we need to bring lifting equipment past the barriers to retrieve the car?
Yes - deploy the SC.

[chillibowl]

personally i like that the lapped cars are moved out of the way, particularly if that lapped car happens to be in front of the race leaders during the restart.

is it unfair?...sure a bit.

could it be done faster?...probably.

are the laps after a SC period better because of moving the lapped cars out of the way?...imo unequivocally yes!

to each their own of course but i am totally fine with a few extra boring SC laps if it means getting more laps of the leaders in close quarters.

fair trade and this race is case and point imo.

[S griffin]

Sorry, but nothing will convince me this free pass rule belongs in F1. Quite frankly if you’re a lap down you shouldn’t have it handed to you on a plate. Especially as the SC doesn’t come out every race. Also consider the fact the leader did all the hard work of lapping those cars to build a buffer

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There are two subtly different factors here, and both need to be considered.



You are right that the VSC was brought in after the Bianchi crash - but that is used when there is a requirement to slow the whole field down immediately.

The regulations were also reviewed and it was deemed that whenever a crane is on track, then a full SC is deployed.



In the case of Bottas, the first question asked by Race Control would be - do we need to slow the whole field immediately?

No - so the VSC was not used.



The next question would be - do we need to bring lifting equipment past the barriers to retrieve the car?

Yes - deploy the SC.

Fact is though it was over after a few seconds, so I do wonder if it was really that necessary