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Old 29 Jun 2020, 09:55 (Ref:3984453)   #176
BertMk2
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
...I don't think LMDh is suitable for the series, the series needs to keep as much as the tin top specification as they can
Agreed - they should keep the 'road car' premise (even if there's little to any of actual road car in the current cars).

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... he needs to make sure that he can bring in enough manufacturers and have a stable series...
I'm not sure relying on manufacturer entries is the way forward. Realistically the days of full grids of works teams is pretty much over isn't it? Championships either need common regs that allow manufacturers to build cars that can be used in multiple championships (eg; TCR, GT3, GT4) or they need to allow teams to build their own cars relatively cheaply (eg; NGTC).

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... it has to be a feasible concept for independents. I can't see BMW or Audi a works teams providing more than four prototypes each to the grid.
This for me is key - you can't rely on works teams for the bulk of the entry, it has to be possible for independents to field cars (so either widely available customer cars or an easy build ruleset).

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Originally Posted by GusGasfuss View Post
My preferred rule-set would be a mixture of BTCC/NGTC and the italian Superstars-Series.
The Superstars rules looked pretty good - why did they series fail? The same applies to the old V8 Star championship - although they were spaceframes rather than production shell based cars.

If they want manufacturer entries N/A V8 is probably not the way to go though.

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Class 1 is not solution (it is also too expensive in Japan, but these guys can't pull out of the series without losing their face).
A full grid of Class 1 cars from 6 different manufacturers would be amazing for DTM - but it's not going to happen. Class 1 is just too expensive - are the JGTC teams all factory backed or are there independent teams?
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Old 29 Jun 2020, 12:32 (Ref:3984482)   #177
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I had a think once about how the BTCC could produce, whilst WTCC with the same ruleset could not. My theory was the variety of cars in the BTCC compared to the WTCC. In both you would get circuits that suited cars better than others, but whilst it wasn’t too much of a problem in the BTCC, in the WTCC you would get total domination of one manufacturers quite a few times and the others didn’t get a look in. Even if you got say a BMW circuit in the BTCC, what helped is that they were all independent, so you also didn’t get the team orders you got in the WTCC, where even the independents needed to help out. Even with the manufacturers in the BTCC I don’t remember them using independents using their cars, like Eurotech did with Honda, to defer to the works cars.

Maybe the DTM has a similar problem as the WTCC did, lack of variety means one manufacturer can dominate the event and use too much team orders, especially with the old cars.

Then again V8 Supercars has always produced close racing, even when there was only Ford and Holden competing, but then I think there are rules in place that mean you don’t everyone gets a fair chance whether they are factory backed or independent
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Old 10 Jul 2020, 14:25 (Ref:3987233)   #178
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According to Motorsport-Total, Audi may not leave DTM after all. Well, it's a bit complicated:

Audi still has stake with the ITR, the organizing body of DTM. So they could theoretically decide on the future of the series. But they made it clear they see no future for the current class one cars. So maybe they could push forward some set of regs that allow them to have cars on the grid, while not necessarily having to fund a full works entry.

In my opinion, they'll go with GT3+ for 2021. The cars are there and should be relatively easy to modify. They could just allow the DTM and Super GT manufacturers to put their developed two-liter turbos into the cars, while putting a standard aero kit on each car - similar to the early GTD class in IMSA -, as well as putting each car into the windtunnel, to completely equalize them aerodynamically.

They would also have to come up with some equalization between turbos and "regular" GT3 engines, to make it attractive for manufacturers like Mercedes, McLaren or Porsche to enter.

Other than modified GT3, I honestly don't see any viable set of regs for 2021.
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Old 10 Jul 2020, 14:45 (Ref:3987237)   #179
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Seeing how the 2.0l turbo engines are the very thing that made costs for the Class 1 cars spiral out of control, I really don't see how plugging those into a GT3 chassis will help.
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Old 10 Jul 2020, 17:21 (Ref:3987268)   #180
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I think GT3 is now really the only way forward. If it meant Audi's participation in whatever capacity, it would be even better.
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Old 11 Jul 2020, 09:56 (Ref:3987357)   #181
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The idea of DTM running a variation of GT3 seems madness. The appeal of the current GT3 is that any team can buy an off-the-shelf race car and with little more that some basic set-up changes can run it almost anywhere in the world. Creating a new formula that takes existing GT3 cars and adds series-specific engines and series-specific aero just completely misses the point.

Even running standard GT3 spec seems silly. Germany already has a national GT3 series, is there really room for another one?
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Old 11 Jul 2020, 11:41 (Ref:3987378)   #182
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Even running standard GT3 spec seems silly. Germany already has a national GT3 series, is there really room for another one?
No.
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Old 11 Jul 2020, 19:38 (Ref:3987476)   #183
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just give it the mercy shot already to out it put of its misery

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Old 14 Jul 2020, 21:22 (Ref:3988305)   #184
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Berger has recently admitted there are two ways for DTM - GT3 or extinction.
What's interesting, Audi would be willing to stay in GT3-DTM and from what I understand, ITR is waiting for BMW's approach to things. If both Audi and BMW are willing to take part in GT3-DTM and therefore attract their GT3 customer teams (plus teams already racing in DTM) the championship should be quite safe. Theoretically, such a ruleset could lure R-Motorsport or AMG customer teams back, maybe some Porsche teams as well.
The question that still remains - and there is still no clear answer - is how will it be possible to have DTM with GT3 cars and the biggest GT3 championship in the world (ADAC GT) in one country? The idea to make DTM more supported by manufacturers, with sort of GT3+ cars and all professional and non-pay drivers is good on paper. Add to it the fact that DTM would still be touring car-ish in a sense that they wouldn't change drivers and stuff and we have quite a logical division. But the problem is, Berger won't attract manufacturers to do something more with their already existing GT3 cars.
I'm a bit concerned especially given the fact that Berger himself doesn't seem as optimistic and driven as he used to be...
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Old 15 Jul 2020, 02:26 (Ref:3988461)   #185
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Surely DTM would be sprint races, no driver changes, full on tyre changes though - quite different from modern gentleman GT racing.
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Old 15 Jul 2020, 08:37 (Ref:3988482)   #186
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Audi have said they will stay if they impose GT3 rules, so that's interesting. The problem is though, would it be the same if we had the DTM race format?
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Old 15 Jul 2020, 09:19 (Ref:3988490)   #187
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Audi have said they will stay if they impose GT3 rules, so that's interesting. The problem is though, would it be the same if we had the DTM race format?
If by staying you mean flog a few gt3 cars to some punters.
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Old 21 Jul 2020, 17:27 (Ref:3990024)   #188
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They can do that by unleashing some engine power for usual GT3s. It would require some mechanical and electronic work to do, and in terms of crisis every manufacturer has a great reason not to do that.
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Old 21 Jul 2020, 18:58 (Ref:3990048)   #189
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I think that it's possible for a DTM GT3 and the ADAC GT Masters to coexist.


The DTM has single-driver cars and all pros. The ADAC GT Masters can switch to pro-am.
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Old 21 Jul 2020, 20:41 (Ref:3990065)   #190
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I think that it's possible for a DTM GT3 and the ADAC GT Masters to coexist.


The DTM has single-driver cars and all pros. The ADAC GT Masters can switch to pro-am.
On paper, yes. It is absolutely possible.
But:
First of all, if teams and sponsors are already participating in ADAC GT Masters, will they be willing to go to DTM? They could combine both programmes but this costs money. I think teams like WRT, Schubert, GRT Grasser or Zakspeed are fine with options they have - run 'German' programmes in GT Masters and do some international championships as well. Would they add DTM to their programme? Only if they have spare money or if they decide DTM is so attractive commercially for them and their partners.
I'm sceptical about it for now, I'm not so sure whether ADAC GT teams and sponsors would really think DTM would give them much more. I may be wrong but it's not like comparison between F3 and F1.

When it comes to professionals and pro-am, again, technically there is a chance but someone has to pay these professionals, that's the first thing and remember that these are Audi and BMW that give most €€€ to the sport, not the sponsors. And, despite comments made by Berger, ADAC GT Masters is not a championship for 'hobby drivers.' Manuel Reuter rightly said there are many top-level pros in GTM, like Kelvin van der Linde, Nick Yelloly, Maro Engel, Mirko Bortolotti, Chris Mies and others. Some of them are factory drivers of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lamborghini etc.

Such a division that professionals and factory drivers go to DTM, while smaller teams and 'hobby racers' go to ADAC could work but someone would need to sort of making it official, i.e. make some rules for that. It's completely impossible to happen unless ADAC and ITR cooperate, which won't happen.
There would be one more way to make such a division - manufacturers, big teams and sponsors would need to be certain DTM is the right way to go. But how can Berger make it?
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Old 21 Jul 2020, 22:33 (Ref:3990081)   #191
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I think it could work, but you would need to close down the ADAC GT series and even then how many teams would move across? They have plenty of projects out there. It wouldn’t really work

Maybe some form of GT3 would work, it would still be the number 1 sport in Germany. Hardly would be a step down

Most of all I hope enough cars can continue to take part. That’s where we came in
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Old 29 Jul 2020, 20:10 (Ref:3991498)   #192
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http://gt-place.com/2020/07/29/rowe-...-schon-machen/

It's too early to draw big conclusions but ROWE Racing would be willing to make a DTM debut in 2021 if DTM switched to GT3 cars. I'm interested in how other GT3 teams would view their chance to join DTM. Of course it's nothing concrete yet but it seems ROWE had some discussions with Berger and two years ago they wanted to join DTM.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 16:00 (Ref:3991892)   #193
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DTM starts this weekend, so let’s make sure we enjoy it with it’s uncertain future
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Old 20 Aug 2020, 13:45 (Ref:3996661)   #194
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https://www.motorsport.com/dtm/news/...paign=widget-1

DTM is set to introduce 'GT Plus' formula from 2021 with a focus switched from manufacturers towards customer teams. Audi seems to be approving of this idea, BMW sounds more sceptical about it (fearing their involvement in GT3 would kill customer racing) but allegedly there are a number of teams being keen on joining DTM in a new form.
For now, there's no signal from teams coming from other manufacturers, however, I hope if it all came to fruition some Mercedes or Porsche teams would be attracted, too.
GT Plus would involve BoP and Push to pass but without DRS and would have 600+hp.
I think on paper it seems a good solution, way better than sticking to already dead Class One formula. Now the big question is, will this idea attract enough teams and some factory support?
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Old 20 Aug 2020, 14:55 (Ref:3996682)   #195
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Let’s hope it attracts the manufacturers and doesn’t alienate it’s core supporters
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Old 20 Aug 2020, 16:01 (Ref:3996704)   #196
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It would be a shame to see the DTM fall by the wayside a 2nd time
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Old 20 Aug 2020, 16:11 (Ref:3996709)   #197
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Let’s hope it attracts the manufacturers and doesn’t alienate it’s core supporters
I guess part of that depends on whether the 'core supporters' are willing to accept that time moves on....
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Old 20 Aug 2020, 16:36 (Ref:3996717)   #198
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Core supporters are part of what is needed for a sport. Ignore them and you risk losing lots of supporters. NASCAR has ruined it’s series by not realising that
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Old 20 Aug 2020, 16:58 (Ref:3996724)   #199
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I, considering myself a DTM fan, would be way happier seeing 24 'GT Plus' cars, with such teams as ROWE, WRT, Schnitzer, Abt, etc racing rather than 16 Class One cars whose racing performance is overshadowed with technology. I was always saying DTM should look at Supercars as en example and switching to 'GT Plus' could - theoretically - make it closer to this.
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Old 21 Aug 2020, 15:43 (Ref:3996889)   #200
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GT Plus could work very well - allow cars more power (maybe slightly less weight too), have shorter races with no pitstops (40 mins?) and find tyres that can be pushed the whole time. That would provide great racing. Manufacturers could easily develop GT Plus packages for their existing GT3 cars (similar to the endurance packages for TCR cars) so smaller teams get more use from their existing assets. The formula could then be used around the world.
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