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Old 16 Nov 2020, 20:34 (Ref:4017326)   #181
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Anyopenroad should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAnyopenroad should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAnyopenroad should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAnyopenroad should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi View Post
True enough. Back in the Senna/Prost days I had the hump when Prost won and laughed like a drain when he hit bad luck
I was the exact opposite!

I bet you were a Steve Ovett man too huh? I was always Coe...
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 21:38 (Ref:4017330)   #182
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chavez should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
But I think it shows he still has much to learn. Heís done a very good job this season, but maybe hasnít quite got the racing brain other top drivers have yet.
Max is in his sixth season of F1.

How much more time should we give Max?

Of course he will go on to win races, but he is not World Champion material - at least not yet.

He continues to remind me of Andrea deCesaris, fast but seemingly unable to control his emotions and learn from mistakes, but Max has the luxury of being in a car that is capable of winning on some days.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 22:49 (Ref:4017343)   #183
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Originally Posted by chavez View Post
Max is in his sixth season of F1.

How much more time should we give Max?

Of course he will go on to win races, but he is not World Champion material - at least not yet.

He continues to remind me of Andrea deCesaris, fast but seemingly unable to control his emotions and learn from mistakes, but Max has the luxury of being in a car that is capable of winning on some days.
May I make a suggestion?

Could you take a look again at some of Max's performances, not just the wins, and then come back and tell us what it is that reminds you of De Cesaris.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 22:57 (Ref:4017347)   #184
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
May I make a suggestion?

Could you take a look again at some of Max's performances, not just the wins, and then come back and tell us what it is that reminds you of De Cesaris.
Does he need to go further back than the Turkish GP, or will that do?
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 23:00 (Ref:4017349)   #185
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Does he need to go further back than the Turkish GP, or will that do?
Depends on how good their memory is.

Do yiu think Turkey is an accurate barometer of Max's ability?
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 23:14 (Ref:4017355)   #186
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Originally Posted by chavez View Post
Max is in his sixth season of F1.

How much more time should we give Max?
Itís not just number of races. Itís just age, maturity will come from more than just lappery.

Although there is a possibility his character wonít become more rounded, but it happens to most.

Quote:
Of course he will go on to win races, but he is not World Champion material - at least not yet.
Yes, even an immature Max is better than most. It might mean he loses a close fight because of being silly, but he might make it up by just being fast.
Quote:
He continues to remind me of Andrea deCesaris, fast but seemingly unable to control his emotions and learn from mistakes, but Max has the luxury of being in a car that is capable of winning on some days.
I donít think heís like deCesaris at all. Heís much faster (relative to todayís competition). Not sure the attitude is the same either, although maybe deCasaris would be more arrogant child if heíd made a splash like Max has.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 23:16 (Ref:4017356)   #187
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Depends. What do you mean by ability? (Sorry I realise that comes across as nit picking or deconstructing your post, but it isn't how I mean it to sound).

Is it an accurate barometer of his driving ability? As in, what he can do? No, it isn't. But Turkey also wasn't an accurate barometer of Riccardo, for example. He also has the ability to do much better than he did in Turkey. So in that regard, no.

Do I think it's an accurate representation of the overall state of Max Verstappen as a driver? As a whole package? Yes. He gets into needless confrontations, puts everything at risk when it doesn't need to, and often comes out much worse than he should given his raw ability as a driver. Turkey was just a great example of that.

See: Turkey Race, Turkey Qualifying Sulk, Portimao Stroll clash. Or being demoted off the podium in Mexico. Or overtaking off the track at COTA and being demoted again. Or giving himself a flat tyre trying to run Lewis off the road in Bahrain. Or driving into the side of Vettel in China. Or even failing to read Ocons sign posted stupidity in Brazil and then being a child and pushing Ocon about in the garage like a bully. His reaction to most of these incidents was that he was right. And that's why he doesn't learn.

I'm not the biggest on F1 details. That's just a list off the top of my head. I'm sure others could add more.
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Old 17 Nov 2020, 03:44 (Ref:4017369)   #188
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Ah, but Verstappen race was ruined by a wing adjustment:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ppen-in-turkey
Or something.
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Old 17 Nov 2020, 06:47 (Ref:4017379)   #189
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Taxi645 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Striking how selective we can be in supporting our opinions. He messes up one race this season (still finishes 6th btw) and it's all rubbish again straight away.

Yes he still has that side to him. He's gotten it more under control over the years and this year it has really bitten him once, resulting in a 6th place. Every other time he did not have a mechanical he finished on the podium, but feel free to weigh the facts the way you see fit.
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Old 17 Nov 2020, 07:33 (Ref:4017380)   #190
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
May I make a suggestion?

Could you take a look again at some of Max's performances, not just the wins, and then come back and tell us what it is that reminds you of De Cesaris.
Andreas had the speed, but never a good car. So Max certainly has the advantage there.

However Andreas' speed was never in doubt, Spa '83 is a perfect example.

Andreas crashed often, seemingly unable to learn that over driving was not the answer.

Max is an exciting driver, as was Andreas, but the very good Formula One drivers, those that become World Champion are predicable and unrelenting in their consistency. Their worst day is not that far removed from their best day.

For both Max and Andreas their worst days are far removed from their best.

Max will give us years of entertainment and perhaps many more wins, but I cannot see the making of a World Champion - not yet at least and six years is a long way into an Formula One career to drop the ball so badly as he did this weekend.
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Old 17 Nov 2020, 07:39 (Ref:4017381)   #191
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
Ah, but Verstappen race was ruined by a wing adjustment:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ppen-in-turkey
Or something.
Ah, now I get it.... everyone in the parade was out of step except for Max.
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Old 17 Nov 2020, 10:02 (Ref:4017413)   #192
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Verstappen is a race winner and the only one out of 18 drivers who regularly can get in among the ultra dominant Mercedes. DeCesaris was a journeyman. I'm sure that there are better comparisons out there that can be used to make whatever point is supposed to have been made.

A team owner is going to prefer to have a very fast driver who maybe does not have a fully rounded / matured personality yet, instead of a model citizen who always says the right thing and is never grumpy but is at best half a second off the pace.

Next week people will be probably complaining that none of the drivers have character, not like in the "good old days". Yet when a current driver like Hamilton or Verstappen says or does something outside of the corporate normality the same people will complain.
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Old 17 Nov 2020, 10:13 (Ref:4017416)   #193
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Verstappen is a race winner and the only one out of 18 drivers who regularly can get in among the ultra dominant Mercedes. DeCesaris was a journeyman. I'm sure that there are better comparisons out there that can be used to make whatever point is supposed to have been made.

A team owner is going to prefer to have a very fast driver who maybe does not have a fully rounded / matured personality yet, instead of a model citizen who always says the right thing and is never grumpy but is at best half a second off the pace.

Next week people will be probably complaining that none of the drivers have character, not like in the "good old days". Yet when a current driver like Hamilton or Verstappen says or does something outside of the corporate normality the same people will complain.
I think there's plenty of drivers with character. Lewis, Vettel, Danny Ric, Lando, Russell, Leclerc. They're all absolute characters. They just aren't the sort of character who'll attack another driver in a garage.

Looking forward to the next Max Wet Weather Masterclass. This one was a treat.
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Old 17 Nov 2020, 10:15 (Ref:4017417)   #194
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Not like in the good old days of Schumacher, Piquet, Gachot etc.
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Old 17 Nov 2020, 11:39 (Ref:4017431)   #195
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Ah, but Verstappen race was ruined by a wing adjustment:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...ppen-in-turkey
Or something.
Those pesky wing adjustments.
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