March772-05 History?

[Kevin Miller]

Dear All, my brother suggested I use this site to trace history of my March, hope I don't bore you with all the details. Sitting in my garage is MARCH with chassis plate 772-05 attached to monocoque tub 773:36. Bought by me in May 1999 off a guy in Australia who had done a deal with Garry Cliff (Magnum Motorsport) in New Zealand in 1998. Garry Cliff had acquired the car from John MacKinlay (Auckland) around Nov.96 and John acquired it possibly late '94 from Kenny Smith. The NZ advertisement (NZ Speedsport No.88) suggests it was an ex Riley car and it was called a 77B. However I talked to Brett and his father, John and the details didn't ring a bell with them. Also Kenny Smith was a bit vague, thought it wasn't the ex-Dave Saunders car but possibly the ex-Giltrap car. That is about all I know of NZ history. Then there is the European history!! It is well documented that 772-05 (with tub 772:05) was the Hart powered car that Giacomelli drove in the first four races in 1977. According to Duncan R. records my tub,(773:36) was in 77B-16 being tested at Silverston on 15/2/77 with a BMW and FT200. This package was rebadged? as the first '77 prototype 772P-U1. This prototype does the first four races with P.Neve, A.Ribeiro and J.Mass as drivers. Come Vallelunga May 15th Giacomelli gets to drive the P car and Alex Ribeiro gets stuck with 772-05(slower). According to Autosport May 19 pg.40 race report about the P car and I quote 'This was not the same chassis that had won the previous two races in the hands of Jochen Mass. After its Nurburgring victory it was found (literally) to be falling apart at the seams, especially around the rear bulkhead, so a completely new chassis was built with a stronger monocoque, a revised F1-type nose subframe and strengthened bulkheads' etc. etc. Another Autosport report June 2 pg.3 suggest that there is a rift between Ribeiro and March, although March deny it. However Ribiero goes on to drive a Chevron on June 26. I can only assume it is because he got to drive the slower wide bodied car and was not happy. So, after Vallelunga we seem to have tub 773:36 and wide bodied 772-05 both sitting forlornly in the March factory (772-05 does not sufface again in '77). Giacomelli goes on for the rest of the season in the prototype U1. My theory is that March build up another prototype (spare?) using the reglued/rerivetted 773:36 tub and all the F2 mechanicals off 772-05 (possibly for Giacomelli) and this is why I have this combination in my garage. I can find no mention of a second protoype being built, however, miraculously a second one appears at Donington on Oct 30 with Marc Surer as driver. Alex Ribeiro has been put back in U1 while Giacomelli moves on to the 782 prototype for this final race of the season. 772-05 appears again in 1978 with Sergio Mangotti listed as the driver at Nurburgring and Mugello. I would love to see a photo at this time to check if it is the wide bodied tub or the narrow sidepod P configuration. I have no information between the 1978 appearance and the mid 90's recent history. Can any of you guys out there shed some light on this little problem. One other minor clue is that on one of the spun rear rims (composite wheels) is written Shierson's name. Possibly tagged with a name while being repaired? Any info will be gratefully accepted. Hopefully attached is a photo of the car in NZ sometime in mid '90s.

[Kevin Miller]

Hopefully this time photo of March in New Zealand in mid 90's.

[Chris Townsend]

Kevin

Welcome! My understanding of the 772/772P issue was that March tubs changed design radically with the 75 model and that the 772 had much in common with that. To get back to a slimmer line I thought they used a 742 tub, but clearly not.
Certainly a number of 742s ended up in the narrow pod configuration in the late 70s, mimicking what the factory had done with their cars. [I remember Carlo Giorgio running like this, and the Richard Jones 742.]

However, if you are thinking that 772-05 as raced by Mingotti in 78 is your car with the narrow tub and pods, as raced by Surer at Donington 77 that's not the case.
Both the 772Ps have post March history.U1 goes to Norman Dickson and is raced in both 78 and 79 in the Aurora AFX series [in 79 it's driven by Brancatelli and Pascal Witmeur rather than Dickson].
The Surer car, called U2 by F1R, is sold to Patsy McGarrity for Atlantic racing in Ireland in 78 then comes back to England in 79 where Kim Mather and Mike Wilds race it, with Pontins sponsorship in the Aurora series.
So U2 can't be the Mingotti car with a 772-5 plate and a different tub.

[Bryan Miller]

Chris, I think we may have another mess here .

In front of me I have ex. D.R. 13/12/02 the following ,

77B-16
B.M.W. F2
White
Monocoque no. 773-36
Gearbox no. FT200-1147
Test Car .
First run at Silverstone 15th. February 1977
Chassis no. changed to 772P-U1


If 772P-U1 goes to Norman Dickson etc. how come the tub. 773-36 is still in Kevin,s car .??????????????
Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

Chris, just found another notr to myself which had on www.racecars.com a March claiming chassis no. 772-3 as ex. Norman Dickson, Euro C/ship 1977 thence Aurora 43500.00 U.S.D. for sale but located in Sweeden.

[Kevin Miller]

Bryan, after Nurburgring when it was discovered my tub (773:36) was coming apart at the seams, the report says it was replaced, therefore it was no longer part of U1. Therefore U1 could have moved on after 1977 and still leave my tub 'somewhere else'.
Re: the Norman Dickson car- I corresponded a bit with the guy in Sweden who had 772-03. His name is Bengt Ernryd and I have his address. We exchanged emails and photos about the differences in his car (wide bodied) and mine. He definitely had 772-03 which was Dicksons car . Dickson bought the car on 26.1.1977 drove it through 77 then initial it was thought to go to Kim Mather but according to Bengt, the March records say it was sold to a James Jock (or Jack). Bengt said his car spent 10 years in Sri Lanka doing hillclimbs in the 80's and he was trying to trace that period. Another interesting thing he said was that when he bought it off ATM Motor Sports in England it had 'exactly the same side pods as 77P but with wide tub'. Also Bernt said that the 77P car Dickson bought was an ex-shunted Giacomelli car.

[Armco Bender]

Seems strange that all those Kiwis all have selective memory loss as to the cars existance here,after all so few 77's came here.Have you faced the possibilty its just a cobbled together bitser knocked up here some time in the 80's from all the bits left over from cars that came here for the Atlantic series?.
The Shierson name on the wheel would relate back to Ken Smith, as his 76B and the Melville car were ex Shierson,so its probably his old wheel!.
David McKinney is the man to ask on Marchs in NZ at this time,hes the absolute Godfather on Atlantic information in NZ in the 70's,if he cant help no one can.

[Kevin Miller]

Dear Armco Bender, I have considered that the car could be a collection of spare bits but I keep thinking there are too many coincidences with the tubs and the Euroracing link in 1977. Another thing is that the Marston bag tanks are dated Dec 1976, all the cast bits have F2 part nos. and the steering wheel has a BMW badge on it as per the photo. Maybe its real history is a lost cause. Cheers.

[Chris Townsend]

Bengt Ernryd's car is [was? I think he's sold it] a very clean 772. It was the chassis raced by Dickson in 1977. [772-3] It was sold to James [Jimmy] Jack, and used in the Scottish Hillclimb championship and a few libre races at Ingliston.

78: Dickson races a car which is described by Autosport and Motoring News as the ex Giacomelli car and it is a 772P.
However: do we have evidence that the same tub stayed in this car throughout its history, either at March or in Dickson's ownership?
It's perfectly feasible that March changed the tub either after the Ring or at some other point and then dropped it into another car - Mingotti's - following the best March tradition of building new second hand cars. All I'm saying is that this can't be both the Surer car at Donington and the Mingotti car.

And if it's the Surer car I don't see how it can be the Riley 77B
I'm not saying that Kevin does

[Roger H]

I feel this topic is a minefield. Some or all of you may be aware of the observations I am going to make but here goes.
March tubs have a number under the roll hoop mount, often eroneously taken for the chassis number. This number is usually prefixed with the letters AM. AM stands for Arch Motors who were subcontracted by March to carry out the fabrication . Arch then stamped up the steel work with the March type and the individual job number.
To further muddy the waters march offered an exchange chassis scheme, whereby you arrived at the factory on Monday or Tueseday morning with your wrecked tub and following the handing over of a wad of folding stuff you departed with a rebuilt tub. So the tubs rarely stayed with their original chassis plate. One car I was involved with had four rebuilt tubs in succession. In so far as the driver sat in, raced and shunted all four they must be all ex whoever. But thats one for the registrars.

[Armco Bender]

That exchange thing is interesting Roger H,I was wondering if they did that at March,I collect serial numbers for an aircraft type where the same thing happened,you bought the wreck in one day and the same aircraft was ready the next day,but they used the old aircrafts serials on the"new" one.
Reading Kevins first post again,the Riley and Giltrap Marches are out because they must have been dispatched to NZ around 11/77 for the '78 series.
Maybe the NZ connection is a red herring and the car wasn't used as an Atlantic,which was the next question I had for Kevin,what sort of engine does the car have?Doesn't look like an Atlantic engine in the 1990 photo.

[Bryan Miller]

Roger , yes noted re. tub no. Always on Brabhams and other tube frame cars is the A,M. no.
On March the '' tub '' E.G. my 74B which is 732-26 I had always been under the impression that this was a Thompson no. so to speak as they were the people folding up the tubs , or the no. was applied by more Probably March , otherwise we could not have the situation as in Kevin,s case where the initial tub no. matched the chassis no.
No problem with the concievable fact that you could stuff your car 6 times in a seaon and even end up back on your original tub after it had been in 3 other cars seperate accidents through a season or 2.
Bryan.

Chris aren,t you glad you enquired about those 3 Chevrons.???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Chris Townsend]

Bryan

You know what? I've got a whole load of other mysteries to solve before we can ever get F.Atlantic on to oldracingcars in anything like the state of the F5000 races.
[Though we do seem to be doing a cracking job of nailing down most of the Antipodean cars, and if David's magazines have the full race reports with retirements and race times, we might be quite close to having 90% of the data for the 77 Tasman. UK results are quite good but a bit patchy.]

The real minefield and also the real area where 'I know nothing' is the Canadian and American cars of the 70s. Anyone with a 75, 76, 77 or 78B March sales register would be welcomed here in Clerkenwell with a really good drink. Any offers from our N.American correspondents?

Funnily enough what is remarkably clear is early Ralts. Autosport actually published a complete sales list up to chassis 70 when they ran a feature on the company in late 76.

[Bryan Miller]

Chris, we have usurped Kevin,s thread for our own selfish reasons .
Where do you wish to go from here, perhaps you may wish to send me an email.
I was presuming ypu had the Ralt list , 3 only ever R.T.1 in Oz , 2 still here, what is your start and finish time periods. e.g 1600cc F2 in 1960s to end 1979 for F2 / Atl. or what.??????
I have individual sales sheets for a couple of 75Bs that went to the states,is all I can think of at the moment.
Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

Chris , we could kill 2 birds with 1 stone and you put up all you have on the 1977 N.Z. race and let us all have a shot at it and if that combined effort works do 1978 , 1979 and at the same time we would solve a few mysteries re. ch.no.s and cars trails , might even clear Kevin,s mess .
Your comments , we have to start somewhere as it is not productive bouncing from 1974 in U.K. ATL . one moment to 1978 in N.Z. the next as you loose your train of thought .
Bryan.

[Armco Bender]

Yeah lets see the "77,'78 NZ race details again that would be interesting reading.
David McKinney is still the man for that he did the race reports in Motoraction with all the chassis details for each race of the series.
Random March question,I've always assumed the March 772 had wide side pods for bigger tanks for F2 races,and the 773 types had skinny side pods for smaller tanks,I am right with this?.

[flatlander_48]

I would add: http://www.marchives.com/

There is a bit of peripheral info there...

[Kevin Miller]

Thanks everyone for feedback. Chris, do you have any dates on when U1 and U2 were sold and raced in '78, so that I can try and eliminate false paths. I have just reread the correspondence with Brett Riley and I recall his father saying they replaced the tub in Brett's car in '79 after a prang at Teretonga. Mabe my tub floated around Europe for most of 78 then was sent out as a replacement for Brett's car. I noticed in the Chevron B29s thread that David McKinney had Brett's 77B 'apparently competing in Australian hillclimbs with Peter Finlay in '98'. I don't think I had mentioned before that I bought my car off Peter in '99 so if you are there David, can you shed some light on where your info. came from. Maybe I have the ex-riley car (as the NZ add said) but with my tub (773:36) put in in '79. Cheers.

[Kevin Miller]

For your info. Armco Bender, here is a photo of narrow side pod bag tanks out of my car. My guestimation puts them at about 100litres or 20gals. I don't know how this compares with wide bodied bags. Cheers.

[Chris Townsend]

Okay everyone

Let's keep these threads divided. This is only about Kevin's 772-05. I'll check the Autosport/Motoring News pieces that note the sale of U1 and 'U2' hopefully Saturday, if not late next week.

I'll start a new thread for Tasman 77 results to see if you chaps can add or subtract. Let's carry on using the Chevron B29 thread to investigate miscellaneous Atlantic histories until they get big enough to have threads of their own.

Chris

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Kevin Miller
so if you are there David, can you shed some light on where your info. came from

Present and correct, but with no spare time till the weekend

[Kevin Miller]

A request for Armco Bender. I have tried ringing brett Riley or his father at the number I previously had at J.Riley car sales (9-8461084) but the number has changed and Brett has left the new number in a message and with that lovely NZ accent I can't get all the numbers. I think the last six are 758058, but after three attempts I can't get the first few. Telstra Oz only have the old number when I checked with them. Any chance of ringing the above no. to decipher the recorded message and passing it on via this forum. Cheers.

[Armco Bender]

That message is a shocker Kevin,but the number is
021 758508,thats a mobile phone.
Phone book listing is still the old number.
J Riley Car Sales Ltd, 626 New North Road -MORNINGSIDE. Phone: 0-9-846
1084 Fax: 0-9-846 1084

[Kevin Miller]

I have now traced the NZ history of my car and I will post it in the 1977 Tasman thread shortly. I am still trying to tie in the 772-05 chassis plate, 773:36 tub and Sergio Mingotti in '78 if anyone comes up with further info. I would appreciate it. Thanks Armco Bender for the phone no. info. Cheers.

[David McKinney]

Kevin
Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier. I'm sure my Peter Finlay information came from a website, but when I did a search on the weekend I couldn't find it.
However, I see you've now found confirmation elsewhere