March 722 - 732 - 742 - 752

[Simon Hadfield]

I am pretty sure to get HTPs you will need to have an iron block BD - as used in period - the Hart 420S (the forerunner of the BDG we know today) came out in 73, principally in the Chevron B25.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

I don't know about on the mountains in Europe - Allen would know from his copious collection of Echappement

I haven't seen any sign of a Chevy EA / Vega engine in French hillclimbs but Echappement didn't usually mention the engine unless there was something a bit different about it - a ROC for example.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

I am pretty sure to get HTPs you will need to have an iron block BD - as used in period - the Hart 420S (the forerunner of the BDG we know today) came out in 73, principally in the Chevron B25.

Some early predecessor of that engine was tested by March in August 1972 and perhaps after, in one of the works cars, and the prototype BMW was tested August-September in another [but neither of the test cars were this chassis...]

At the end of the 1972 season, this car ran a 1.850 Hart, having run a BDF earlier in the season

[pantah]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

I am pretty sure to get HTPs you will need to have an iron block BD - as used in period - the Hart 420S (the forerunner of the BDG we know today) came out in 73, principally in the Chevron B25.

I have a 1600 BD (currently on carb's, but) I don't think it'll go out as far as 1850cc, unless anyone can inform me otherwise...?

While you are on Simon, I notice that the 722 had a large casting under the FT200 to pick up the lower wishbones. Clearly, on this car, it is long-gone. Your name was mentioned in connection with its possible replacement ...?

PM me, and we can discuss.

[Bryan Miller]

We have already been through this over here with John Gale's sister car 722-5
which ran an iron block early but was one of the cars that ended up late season with an alloy block after all the blow ups , the evidence is in Autosport and the season summary in Automobile year which goes into
great detail on the first season of the 2.0 litre F2 and all the engine trials and tribulations , but you will need to read every race report and all the bits and pieces columns in all the Autosports for 1972 .

I have sat and watched this car on race-cars .com for about three years going nowhere , could not convince John Gale he needed the matching pair and could not convince myself I needed another early/mid 70s car.

Owner stated it had a MK9 Hewland , obviously should be an FT200 , what exactly does it have.?

Are you aware this car and 722-5 were rented out by March and competed in the South American Temporada Series.

[pantah]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

We have already been through this over here with John Gale's sister car 722-5
which ran an iron block early but was one of the cars that ended up late season with an alloy block after all the blow ups , the evidence is in Autosport and the season summary in Automobile year which goes into
great detail on the first season of the 2.0 litre F2 and all the engine trials and tribulations , but you will need to read every race report and all the bits and pieces columns in all the Autosports for 1972 .

I have sat and watched this car on race-cars .com for about three years going nowhere , could not convince John Gale he needed the matching pair and could not convince myself I needed another early/mid 70s car.

Owner stated it had a MK9 Hewland , obviously should be an FT200 , what exactly does it have.?

Are you aware this car and 722-5 were rented out by March and competed in the South American Temporada Series.

Yes I was aware... "One careful owner.... Hertz rent-a-car" !!!! car came back from SA to Sweden, then to Denmark, and week after-next back home to the UK. It has a Hewland MK9 in it at present - hence my earlier post to Simon Hadfield in connection with the rear lower wishbone pick-up casting which fitted under the original (long-gone) FT200.

[Bryan Miller]

Pantah,

I own BT35-8 ex David Morgan which one the first round of the 1972 series at Mallory against your car etc.

I am running the type of engine you probably need in an Iron block 1790cc
on injection , the engine has not been without grief.

As you read all the race reports you will find everybody did anything to keep an engine in a car , see what happens to Niki Lauda at just one race meeting or Emerson F. with the Lotus with slave engines for practice and swapping to '' the good '' engine for race which was one of 4 special Cosworth BDF s , furnace brased liners etc. which Cosworth told the owners could not be rebuilt and relented once for Emerson F. when he shredded his .

I have a period Nicholson McLaren , which is a hybrid as follows, basically FVA bottom end but running BD crank , with 4.93'' rods rather than 5.23'' BD rods all in a 701M L block which seem to be the best choice to get bore size with better wall thickness , mine is out to 85.7 mm std. FVA and that gives you 1790cc , 87.0mm will give you 1840cc but you will have to sonic test a lot of blocks to find one that will go that far and still give wall thickness .
Having said all that I have so far split the bores , fixed that via very expensive very trick liners , so far so good for a few meetings then the block started splitting via the self tappers screws retaining the welsh plugs [ already in block] so then we had to have the block metal stitched .

Has been good since then and we get the regulation Cosworth figuire of 255bhp at 9000 which is standard for a BDE .

Cosworth web site , you could download all the engine specs. for all the FVA ,BDD , BDG etc. a few yerars ago.

[pantah]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Pantah,

I own BT35-8 ex David Morgan which one the first round of the 1972 series at Mallory against your car etc.

I am running the type of engine you probably need in an Iron block 1790cc
on injection , the engine has not been without grief.

As you read all the race reports you will find everybody did anything to keep an engine in a car , see what happens to Niki Lauda at just one race meeting or Emerson F. with the Lotus with slave engines for practice and swapping to '' the good '' engine for race which was one of 4 special Cosworth BDF s , furnace brased liners etc. which Cosworth told the owners could not be rebuilt and relented once for Emerson F. when he shredded his .

I have a period Nicholson McLaren , which is a hybrid as follows, basically FVA bottom end but running BD crank , with 4.93'' rods rather than 5.23'' BD rods all in a 701M L block which seem to be the best choice to get bore size with better wall thickness , mine is out to 85.7 mm std. FVA and that gives you 1790cc , 87.0mm will give you 1840cc but you will have to sonic test a lot of blocks to find one that will go that far and still give wall thickness .
Having said all that I have so far split the bores , fixed that via very expensive very trick liners , so far so good for a few meetings then the block started splitting via the self tappers screws retaining the welsh plugs [ already in block] so then we had to have the block metal stitched .

Has been good since then and we get the regulation Cosworth figuire of 255bhp at 9000 which is standard for a BDE .

Cosworth web site , you could download all the engine specs. for all the FVA ,BDD , BDG etc. a few yerars ago.

We probably have the components to build the same-spec' engine, but would my car get HTP with it ? That is the burning question !

[Bryan Miller]

As the Hewland distributor for Australia the mind boggles at a poor old MK 9 with a Cosworth Vega in front of it.

If you get any spare wheels with the car and you identify them as Melmags , flat centre no dish , these were glued together and gave trouble in period , I have some that came with my 74B March , the ONLY use for them is pot plant stands.

The rears as per the advert. are Dymags and really good , I have managed to end up with 3 really good cracktested sets , very rare to find a March of this period on March 6 spoke rears , most seemed to favour the Dymags , stiffer and no cooling vents for brakes required .

[pantah]

The 'poor old MK9' will end up on our spares shelf. - along with a couple of other of its MK9 'friends' !

As for the rear wheels, I have no photos of the car in period with those on. It always seemed to have the usual March 6-spoke type as per the fronts, and those which are on my 703. Don't know when those Dymags would have appeared - were they used on some March F1's of that era?

[Bryan Miller]

I would believe so , as period evidence is available to confirm anything/everything was done in 1972 which is why the FIA relented and allowed the alloy block for 1973 , but you may find Peterson/Mass ran an alloy block late in season , John Gale's 722-5 did which is why it is allowed that over here , and that is speaking as an Eligibility Officer and also an FIA HTP representative for Australia.

The other interesting point is in regard to engine capacities , I have a few 1972 programmes for the F2 rounds and virtually everybody listed their capacity as 1997/2000 cc, none of which were correct , the biggest you will probably find is 1970cc and not many of them , lots of 1930 / 1860/1840 etc.

[Bryan Miller]

Yes you are probably correct as to whether they were available in 1972, certainly they were even offered as options in the 1974 March factory lists I have .
Very usefull people are the guys at www.marchives.com Andy Gilbert is the man you need ,they have most of the March drawings which you can purchase if you were not aware of this facility.

[allenbrown]

The biggest 1972 Ford engines were probably Felday's BDA at 1973cc and Wood's at 1994cc for Dave Morgan. The BDEs were only 1798cc and the BDFs were initially 1927cc but the second batch were larger I think. All the Harts I've seen up to the end of the European season were given as 1850cc or sometimes 1798cc.

I can't see where any alloy block Ford raced in 1972. Peterson raced a Cosworth BDF and then Hart, RES and Smith BDAs; Mass ran 1927cc RES BDAs; Lauda had the same selection as Peterson.

[James Murray]

The FIA APPENDIX K rules state "Ford BDG iron blocks may be replaced with aluminium blocks to the period specification, in cars of period H." Not sure whether a 722 is period H but if so you can run an alloy block and presumably obtain an HTP. In reality no one will stop you using the car with a full blown 2000cc alloy block engine even if the period specification is 1790/1850cc.

[phdm]

Originally Posted by James Murray

Not sure whether a 722 is period H

It is.

Period H (HR to be precise for single seaters) is for cars of the period from 01/01/1972 to 31/12/1976.

[Simon Hadfield]

To be pedantic - as are the FIA inspectors(!) - there were no Iron BDG blocks at this time so you can't swap it for an alloy block. Also note that the period spec alloy block was the Hart with a ladder sump, not a lot of those about either! The FIA rule was intended for some of the later BDG/X issues, not this. It should also be noted that the heads were three bolt exhausts etc etc etc. Like Allen I cannot see where the Alloy block raced in 72 - I didn't think the Escort was homologated with the necessary bits until 73 - certainly knowing Chapman's quest for lighter weight and the latest goodies I would have thought that Lotus would have had one for Emerson's 69 at the very first opportunity, and that never happened.

[pantah]

Looks like chassis 17 had a BDA throughout the season now:.....

12/3/72 – Mallory Park – Peterson driving – Ford BDA engine – Fastest lap in heat 1 but DNF due to fuel metering – crashed in heat 2.
3/4/72 – Thruxton – Peterson – Ford BDA – Winner of heat 2 and fastest lap – Winner of final and fastest lap.
16/04/72 – Hockenheim – Jochen Mass – Ford BDA – 17th and not classified in heat 1 due to clutch failure – 4th in heat 2 – not classified overall.
30/04/72 – Nurburgring – Mass – Ford BDA – Winner.
29/05/72 – Crystal Palace – Mass – Ford BDA – 11th and not classified in heat 2 due to electrical – 8th in final.
11/6/72 – Hockenheim – Peterson – Ford BDA – 5th in heat 1 – 3rd in second heat and classified 3rd overall in aggregate results.
25/6/72 – Rouen – Mass – Ford BDA – 4th heat 1 – retired with engine failure in final – not classified overall.
9/7/72 – Osterreichring – Mass – Ford BDA – entered but did not qualify due to Mass attending another event.
6/8/72 – Mantorp Park – Peterson – Ford BDA – heat 1, retired lap 11 due to engine failure – heat 2, retired lap 8 due to flywheel failure.
3/9/72 – Salzburgring – Peterson – Ford BDA – heat 1, retired lap 26 due to a crash.
16/9/72 – Oulton Park – Peterson – Ford BDA – Winner and tied 4 ways for fastest lap.
1/10/72 – Hockenheim – Peterson – Ford BDA – Third overall.
29/10/72 – Interlagos – Silvio Montenegro – Ford BDA – 15th in heat 1 – crashed in heat 2 – not classified in overall results.
5/11/72 – Interlagos – Montenegro – Ford BDA – 15th in heat 1 – 10th in heat 2 – 10th overall.
12/11/72 – Interlagos – Montenegro – Ford BDA – 14th in heat 1 – crash in heat 2 – not classified overall.

Was 1875cc iron block on injection. Many thanks to Marchives (Andy Gilberg) and Chris Townsend for the information. That is what we're sticking with for the car, using the correct components. Neil Roper (Ex-Brian Hart) will be building it.

This is a photo of the car in period - note the rear March 6-spoke wheels - anyone know where I'd get a set from?

[allenbrown]

You are using 'BDA' to cover a wide variety of engines. At Mallory and Thruxton, for example, Peterson raced with a 1927cc Cosworth-built BDE. At Hockenheim, Mass had a RES-built BDA, also of 1927cc. At Mantorp Park, Peterson used a 1850cc Hart BDA. And so on.

[pantah]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

You are using 'BDA' to cover a wide variety of engines. At Mallory and Thruxton, for example, Peterson raced with a 1927cc Cosworth-built BDE. At Hockenheim, Mass had a RES-built BDA, also of 1927cc. At Mantorp Park, Peterson used a 1850cc Hart BDA. And so on.

Like I said - the information came from 3rd parties, but the version we are going for is the 1840/50cc BDA, if only for the fact that we can get the components, and Neil worked for Brian Hart. If you are able to add any more information, please do so.
I think I am correct in saying that for eligibility for the Euro Historic F2, a particular chassis can ONLY run with an engine type that it actually ran in period - not simply an engine that (for example) a sister car ran?

[James Murray]

Euro F2 rules rightly or wrongly allow you to use any engine which a particular model of car ran in period, its not car specific eg. Any March 782 can use a BMW M12 or Hart 420R because thats what they ran in the day.
With the 72 cars I think its a grey area as to which BD specification you can use. As the general concensus is that the alloy block BDG didnt appear until 1973 strictly speaking you should be limited to an engine with a cast iron block however I don't think anyone will object to you putting an alloy BDG in the car as there are 72 cars currently running with them. I guess it depends on how origional you want the car to be as the rule makers wont be interested.........!

[allenbrown]

Different rule makers will care more or less. If the category is for cars built from 1972 to 1976 then a 1972 car could appear in the specification it ran in F2 in 1973 or 1974 and still be adhering to the strict interpretation as well as the relaxed interpretation. Unfortunately, the only 722s that appeared in F2 in 1973 only ran the same variety of BDAs and BDF that were used in 1972 and by 1974 all the 722s had gone (or were being described as 732s quite possibly - that one remains to be solved). That still doesn't get a BDG or an alloy Hart into a March 722.

Maybe you include French hillclimb specifications on the grounds that some of those hillclimbs were Internationals. But the hillclimbs were held to G8 rules, not F2 rules, so that sounds dangerous. It does get you a BMW M12 in a March 722 but only if you believe that Albert Badan's March 722-BMW at Beauvais 1 Jun 1975 wasn't a typo which, as he ran a Ford engine everywhere else, it could conceivably be. Do typos still count as evidence?

The relaxed interpretation would say that any car of a type that appeared between 1972 and 1976 can use an engine of any type that appeared between 1972 and 1976. That means you could stuff a Vega in a March 722 because John Nicholson had a Vega in his March 752 for two races (and two DNQs) in 1976.

But that relaxed interpretation would also allow you to put a Renault CH1B V6 in a March 722 and that does seem slightly weird. Anyone fancy a Lancia-Ferrari V6 in a Lotus 69? Or a Holbay-Abarth in a Ensign LNF2? Who gets the job of deciding what combinations are acceptable and which ones aren't?

[Bryan Miller]

Allen,

Chris confirmed in the Dossier that he did for John Gale's 722-5 that late season Lauda had an alloy block in his car , perhaps you can check wih Chris.

BDA term is actually for the road Escort engine , any race engine was a BDD if Atlantic or BDE / F/G etc in F2 / sports cars.

Neil Roper and my engine man Steve Dewhurst worked together at Brian Hart's.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Allen,

Chris confirmed in the Dossier that he did for John Gale's 722-5 that late season Lauda had an alloy block in his car , perhaps you can check wih Chris.

Oops! Sorry Chris.

[Chris Townsend]

I'll be emailing Pantah with a full list of engines used in 722-17 during 1972 once I finish my holiday and start work on his ORC dossier
According to F1R in 1973 it ran an FVC in South Africa

March used two of their 1972 works cars to test engines for the 1973 season. This was done from late August to October. One of the test cars was Lauda's 722-5 which according to Motoring News ran a variety of BD based engines, driven mainly by David Purley
The other car ran the BMW M12, at Snetterton and Silverstone. I am not disclosing the identity of this car, which is missing, though I know the chassis number. It would be one of the few 722s able to legitimately run BMW engines under strict historic rules, and a profitable car to fake

Chris

[Todd Willing]

Originally Posted by pantah

Looks like chassis 17 had a BDA throughout the season now:.....

12/3/72 – Mallory Park – Peterson driving – Ford BDA engine – Fastest lap in heat 1 but DNF due to fuel metering – crashed in heat 2.
3/4/72 – Thruxton – Peterson – Ford BDA – Winner of heat 2 and fastest lap – Winner of final and fastest lap.
16/04/72 – Hockenheim – Jochen Mass – Ford BDA – 17th and not classified in heat 1 due to clutch failure – 4th in heat 2 – not classified overall.
30/04/72 – Nurburgring – Mass – Ford BDA – Winner.
29/05/72 – Crystal Palace – Mass – Ford BDA – 11th and not classified in heat 2 due to electrical – 8th in final.
11/6/72 – Hockenheim – Peterson – Ford BDA – 5th in heat 1 – 3rd in second heat and classified 3rd overall in aggregate results.
25/6/72 – Rouen – Mass – Ford BDA – 4th heat 1 – retired with engine failure in final – not classified overall.
9/7/72 – Osterreichring – Mass – Ford BDA – entered but did not qualify due to Mass attending another event.
6/8/72 – Mantorp Park – Peterson – Ford BDA – heat 1, retired lap 11 due to engine failure – heat 2, retired lap 8 due to flywheel failure.
3/9/72 – Salzburgring – Peterson – Ford BDA – heat 1, retired lap 26 due to a crash.
16/9/72 – Oulton Park – Peterson – Ford BDA – Winner and tied 4 ways for fastest lap.
1/10/72 – Hockenheim – Peterson – Ford BDA – Third overall.
29/10/72 – Interlagos – Silvio Montenegro – Ford BDA – 15th in heat 1 – crashed in heat 2 – not classified in overall results.
5/11/72 – Interlagos – Montenegro – Ford BDA – 15th in heat 1 – 10th in heat 2 – 10th overall.
12/11/72 – Interlagos – Montenegro – Ford BDA – 14th in heat 1 – crash in heat 2 – not classified overall.

Was 1875cc iron block on injection. Many thanks to Marchives (Andy Gilberg) and Chris Townsend for the information. That is what we're sticking with for the car, using the correct components. Neil Roper (Ex-Brian Hart) will be building it.

This is a photo of the car in period - note the rear March 6-spoke wheels - anyone know where I'd get a set from?

Try here for wheels. http://www.leechapmanracing.com/march.htm