Taku's penalty for France - fair or not?

[Mr V]

It would seem, according to James Allen at least, that, as Takuma Sato spun off before he could take his penalty for overtaking under yellows (although he claim's he was being overtaken instead) that he will recieve a ten place grid drop in France.

I have to say, this seems entirely unfair to me, and something i'm sure hasn't happened before. I wonder if SA will appeal?

[Dutton]

Seems a tad harsh. You'd think the DNF was bad enough in itself.

[Sev]

If that's true it's ridiculous.

[BootsOntheSide]

Pretty sure this has never happened before, but he did (seemingly) infringe the rules and needs to be punished somehow.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I have to say, this seems entirely unfair to me, and something i'm sure hasn't happened before. I wonder if SA will appeal?

I'm pretty sure it has, at least in lower formulae. It's standard, otherwise he wouldn't be punished for what is, after all, a very serious infraction of the rules.

Although SAguri may appeal if Taku was right and he was being overtaken at the time...although given that Button was said to be overtaking him that's not likely.

[tux]

in the fia gt race at zuhai a car was given drive through penalty for an infringment but ran out of fuel before he could complete the penalty. therefore at the next round he had to do the drive through.

seems very harsh on taku but, rules are rules

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

It's definitely on the harsh side. Surely not finishing the race is penalty enough?

Taku definitely likes to run the gambit of emotions doesn't he? After Canada I doubt he was expecting to get slapped down so firmly by the powers that be.

[lord ponsonby]

overtaking under yellows......he deserves all he got and more.
that's my thoughts on the subject and it would apply to all drivers in all races.

[Pro Racer]

if the DNF wasn't bad enough how about just take away his quickest quali lap for France would of been fair IMO, but if he did overtake under yellow he did deserve the penalty as it is adding more danger to a potentially already dangerous situation.

[broadrun96]

would think the DNF would be penalty enough since wouldn't the penalty be a drive-through usually? basically he might as well skip qualifying and use the time as another practice since he will most likely not be inside the top12 anyway

[NAC]

So he is going to start from the back then. He might as well just throw qualifying

I feel sorry for the guy

[dtype38]

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I think what Taku was suggesting was that Jens overtook him down the straight, but then saw the yellows and let Taku back past as they got to the corner. To the observers at the corner that would have looked like Taku had overtaken Jens on the brakes and disobeyed the flags. If that was actually the case I think they would have a good case for an appeal.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Silk Cut Jaguar

It's definitely on the harsh side. Surely not finishing the race is penalty enough?

OK, here's a hypothetical.

I'm a German driver (for the sake of argument). I go into the penultimate GP of the season nine points ahead of my British (say) rival.

I'm bouncing along in front, about to clinch the title, but suddenly I get notification that I'm being given a drive-thru because of (say) excessive chopping. Which is going to put me seventeenth.

So I merely wait for a slow corner, go wide, wait for my rival to dive down the inside, and drive into him, sending my car almost into two wheel mode briefly before crashing down, but having damaged my rival's suspension.

Have I been penalized for the chopping?

[dtype38]

Your point being?

[ensign14]

I forget.

In the meantime, here is some music.

[maltafan]

I think that he should have some kind of penalty, but 10 places on the grid is way too much. Maybe a drive through during next race to be effected before his first pit stop or in the first 10 laps, but 10 grid down is a bit too much I think.

[BootsOntheSide]

Considering that he would probably qualify in the bottom 10 anyway, a grid penalty is much less than a drive-through.

Maybe a fine would be fairest in this situation?

[strider]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I think what Taku was suggesting was that Jens overtook him down the straight, but then saw the yellows and let Taku back past as they got to the corner. To the observers at the corner that would have looked like Taku had overtaken Jens on the brakes and disobeyed the flags. If that was actually the case I think they would have a good case for an appeal.

This seems the most likely explanation. From what I know of Taku, he's not a liar.

[Hazard]

Back in '02 Massa was given the 10 position penalty for the next race. Sauber asked if they could let him sit out the race instead - FIA said yes since effectively it was just like turning the grid drop into a one race ban, so they ran Frentzen instead (That next race being the US Grand Prix).

So this penalty has happened before, though being carried over because he didn't take it is rare in F1...seen it loads of times elsewhere though.

As for fair - well, the rules are pretty cut and dry. If Taku's telling the truth, fine. If it happened as officials have described, penalise! Sure the cameras will tell.

[Bleu]

I watched the video again and I think it happened just as Taku himself suggests.

In any case I don't think it is fair penalty even if he had actually overtaken someone, not like it happened. Btw other STR overtook one driver similarly as Jenson but STR driver stayed ahead, so no penalty.

I wonder what would have happened if DC had jumped the start for example in this race. Would he have 10-place penalty in France in that case?

[Dutton]

Logically, if there was to be consistency, then he would have to face some kind of penalty (not necessarily the same one, as the regulations leave that open to the stewards).

[davyboy]

There are two issues here :

o Does Taku deserve a penalty ?
This very much depends on the course of events themselves on the overtake, but if things did happen as Taku says, then he has a very good case for appeal. For example, if a car stops or dramatically slows and the proceeding car overtakes under yellow, then there's just cause for mitigating circumstances. That seems pretty straightforward to sort out.

o What are the rules for penalty application ?
There must be something written in the FIA rulebook which says that the penalty for overtake under yellow is a stop/go, however if the car retires before the stop/go can be taken, the penalty becomes a 10 grid drop on the following race. If that's not written in the rule book, then it would appear that the organizers have deployed a form of double-jeapordy on the spur of the moment... and that's wrong.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by 2007 Sporting Regulations

15.3 Any decision or communication concerning a particular competitor should be given to him within twenty five minutes of such decision, and receipt must be acknowledged.

16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident:

a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver’s next Event.

16.4 Should the stewards decide to impose either of the penalties under Article 16.3a) or b), the following procedure will be followed:

a) The stewards will give written notification of the penalty which has been imposed to an official of the team concerned and will ensure that this information is also displayed on the timing monitors.
b) From the time the stewards’ decision is notified on the timing monitors the relevant driver may cover no more than three complete laps before entering the pit lane and, in the case of a penalty under Article 16.3b), proceeding to his garage where he shall remain for the period of the time penalty.

However, unless the driver was already in the pit entry for the purpose of serving his penalty, he may not carry out the penalty after the Safety Car has been deployed. Any laps carried out behind the Safety Car will be added to the three lap maximum.

Whilst a car is stationary in the pit lane as a result of incurring a time penalty it may not be worked on. However, if the engine stops it may be started after the time penalty period has elapsed.

c) When the time penalty period has elapsed the driver may rejoin the race.
d) Any breach or failure to comply with Articles 16.4b) or c) may result in the car being excluded.

I am trying to remember, but had Sato actually officially received/acknowledged the initial penalty before spinning out?

The thing I am wondering is whether the regulations could be said to give the stewards the power to give a "replacement" penalty. I don't see that in the regulations. Having said that, I have not read through every article. It is entirely probable that this is covered in another one. The quoted articles are just the most obvious ones I have initially come across.

I would've thought there would be an applicable catch-all article somewhere that would enable the stewards to penalise as they see fit, though...in order to cover the unexpected. I have not seen it initially though...perhaps I have imagined it from the past.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by 2007 Sporting Regulations

15.3 Any decision or communication concerning a particular competitor should be given to him within twenty five minutes of such decision, and receipt must be acknowledged.

I forgot to comment on this before.

Would being informed of the "substituted" penalty be counted 25 minutes from that of the initial decision, or would it start a new "countdown" as of when the stewards made the decision to replace the intial penalty?

In any case, does anyone have particular note of the time intervals in question?

I'm still looking for an article that permits the stewards to substitute penalties.

[FPV GTHO]

The penalty seems harsh IMO, had he finished the race i suppose he wouldve recieved a drive through. 10 place grid drop though is over zealous, something like a time penalty from his finishing position in France would be better IMO. Thats if they insist on keeping the penalty.