No driver orders at Mclaren?/McLaren under investigation

[touringlegend]

Thank god for that.

[Knowlesy]

Oh dear, the people will be disappointed. The people have not got the people's choice.

Meanwhile, motor racing fans wordwide rejoice.

[Bononi]

Yeah, too much wasted space for nothing... can't believe people worried about it...

[Bononi]

Can we close now ?

[Inigo Montoya]

Alleluiah! Thank the Lord for this, as had they been found guilty, I would have been re-examining whether I could watch F1 anymore.

Forza team strategy!

[maximus]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

You're not thinking of the Spa one where Ralf was nowhere in sight until the arrival of the safety car are you?

I think it is the Spa race where Damon definatly deserved that win don't get me wrong, yet he did reccommend that the team order Ralf to stay behind him. To say Mclaren were wrong with what they did is a tad Hypocritical IMO. Damon was also reported to be annoyed when Williams wouldn't order DC to stay behind him during the races (if such a situation occured) in 95 IIRC.

[f1manoz]

Common sense prevails at last.

I still blame the British tabloids who know nothing about motor racing, and Formula One in particular. Stick to writing about football you idiotic bunch of hacks.

[Phoenix1]

Least they are found not guilty!! Not sure if anyone put a link to they full statement.

Link to Autosport and full statement

[ralf fan]

Well done FIA!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by maximus

I think it is the Spa race where Damon definatly deserved that win don't get me wrong, yet he did reccommend that the team order Ralf to stay behind him. To say Mclaren were wrong with what they did is a tad Hypocritical IMO. Damon was also reported to be annoyed when Williams wouldn't order DC to stay behind him during the races (if such a situation occured) in 95 IIRC.

The Daily Mail.

[Clive]

Originally Posted by f1manoz

Common sense prevails at last.

I still blame the British tabloids who know nothing about motor racing, and Formula One in particular. Stick to writing about football you idiotic bunch of hacks.

I wanted to say that. So ditto!

[Knowlesy]

I did catch part of a column in a paper today (Oliver Holt or somebody, I recognised him from "Jimmy Hill's Sunday Supplement" ) who actually supported McLaren's "actions".

No I did not hallucinate. But I thought it was a little refreshing.

I'm looking forward to some of the reaction in tomorrow's Autosport. I wonder what the letters will be like (although they only seem to print two or three these days).

[Paulc]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

McLaren is found not guilty:

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/...capes_penalty/

Great more desperate motor racing to look forward too,Damon Hill,Bernie etc were right because like most of us they want to see fair competative motor racing.Whats next in this deserately boring processional business orientated sport,I for one will have better things to do with my sundays RIP F1.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by DSM

Very interesting considering that Damon Hill played a key role in one of the most blatant race fixes we've seen.

Thats bs! With the exception of Michael, (who went on to crash so it doesn't matter how fast he was,) he was the fastest guy out there, by 2 seconds a lap!

Ralf only got near him because of the safety car. Damon may have intimated team tactics, but what he was also saying was, if you let Ralf have a go at me, i'm going to defend my position, and you (EJ) as a team may lose a 1-2.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Paulc

.Whats next in this deserately boring processional business orientated sport,I for one will have better things to do with my sundays RIP F1.

Thank goodness for that, saves us reading your posts bad F1 is. Simple thing is, if you don't like it, don't watch it, but if you don't like/watch it, don't come on here moaning about it either.

[flying finn]

FIA press release here > http://www.fia.com/resources/documen..._GP_result.pdf

[deejay]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Ralf only got near him because of the safety car. Damon may have intimated team tactics, but what he was also saying was, if you let Ralf have a go at me, i'm going to defend my position, and you (EJ) as a team may lose a 1-2.

Which is exactly the same position Alonso and Ron Dennis were in at Monaco.

Only reason Lewis got near Alonso was because Alonso slowed after the second stop, Alonso knowing that with the pitstops over Lewis would not be able to pass him on track (unless he made a major error). Ron knew Alonso would not let Lewis past, so was correct to advise Lewis to hold off rather than make a mess of things for the team.

Lewis' difficulty in understanding this and subsequent not so subtle whining to the press post-race suggest a certain immaturity.

One day Lewis will be the benefactor of just such a team direction and I guarantee he won't be so bothered then.

To address the comments in the thread that the Mclaren's seemed to be pushing after Ron supposedly told them to slow down. I think this may be because Alonso simply didn't trust Lewis not to push, and so wanted to maintain a time buffer until the pitstops were over. At the end of the day I think Ron's directions may have had little effect on either driver.

[Mr V]

Exactly deejay!

Was talking to a mate today about his point you make...

Originally Posted by deejay

Lewis' difficulty in understanding this and subsequent not so subtle whining to the press post-race suggest a certain immaturity.

Had the team lost drivers and constructors points after Lewis's whining, i don't think it would have endeared (sp??) him to the team.

[deejay]

Just to make one thing clear though, I'm not bagging Lewis for pushing. If Ron did in fact make a call for them to slow so early in the race, then good on the drivers for ignoring him! It made for a more interesting race. I just think Lewis could have been more graceful and realistic about it post-race. As has been pointed out many times in this thread, he was never going to beat Alonso in a straight fight.

Odd situation all around though, and a shame the race has been tarnished.

[JeremySmith]

The correct decision by the FIA onward and upward...And Bernie shut it!

[Andrew2001]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Quote:"Tell me, seeing Hamilton almost write his car off several times from pushing so hard chasing down Alonso, or seeing Alonso SIDEWAYS trying to hold onto his lead, that was quality"

Indeed that WAS quality.. until we were all informed that from around lap 10, orders came from Ron that they were not racing anymore.

I don't really see a major issue with Mclaren's orders, strategy, or whatever Ron calls it. Holding station is quite normal, and put Ferrari, or any other teams in that position, and i'm sure the same will be done.

However, i just love it when Mclaren fans try to portray how Mclaren's orders as morally superior to that implemented by other teams, inc Ferrari. How circumstances are twisted to make Mclaren's orders right, and others all wrong...

They are still team orders, and you like it or you don't. Not to twist the stance dependent on the team that practice it. If we are really to get into details, then maybe it's worth noting that Ferrari orders were at a period when there were no regulations from the FIA, and i don't think the same can be said for last Sunday.

Mclaren did not just ask their drivers to hold station, but as LH had perhaps suggested indirectly, they had also altered his strategy (pit early, and more) which made him lose any chance of winning a strategic race. And Mclaren has shown that they are effective in using their pit "strategies" to influence the outcome of one driver over the other... i think DC experienced it well.

But my opinion remains. I understood Ferrari's need to use team orders, and i accepted it although i didn't like it. Similarly, i didn't like nor support what Mclaren did, but still i accept it as part of the game. Hopefully, some fans will not continue to deny that Mclaren, for good or bad, is really the same as other teams in the business and willingness to use team orders/preferential treatment.

Ahhh Gt_r old boy, where have you been? I missed arguing with you!
I see everyone's point about teams having some kind of authority over a race situation between drivers, ok, fine.
The problem I have, is, ok, Ferrari had an unprecedented run of results, they did an amazing job, but its not the fact that they did it, it's how they did it. Williams and McLaren always fielded two competitive drivers, TWO contenders for teh title, not a no.1 and a slave. That is how they did it, Damon almost got beaten by JV in '96, DC could have challenged Mika in '98 but for a lacklustre 2nd quarter of the season.
In '00 it was a close run thing between the two McLaren drivers til late season, and in late '05 the inter McLaren team battles were fantastic between JPM and Raikkonen.
My point is, Ferrari denied us of that sort of excitment due to their chosen path and way of working, Schumacher's team, Schumacher's rules and Schumacher's slave I mean, "joint number 1" driver. Look at it from the outside, Austria was a disgrace, two years running, that sort of blatant manipulation in this modern age of F1, is unacceptable. Don't bring up Australia '98 because that was not Ron demanding that DC moved over.
What about Malaysia? Team orders? Supposedly 'banned' at Australia '98, then Schumacher spends the entire Malaysian GP in '99 driving 2sec per lap slower, DC does the same back to Schumacher at the finale only for Schumacher to claim that it was different because he was on the lead lap and DC was not, what crap. All this from a then 2 times and very desperate to be 3 times world champion.

IF only Ferrari had fielded two top drivers, like trying Villeneuve in the other Ferrari, or Frentzen, or Alesi, or Heidfeld, or Raikkonen. Of course taht would never have happened, and it is Schumacher and Ferrari that, due to their interpretation of sustaining a winning formula, caused F1 to slump and fans to lose interest, in my view.
No matter how many championships Schumacher won, he never managed to beat a team mate in the mould of Villeneuve against Hill, Mika against DC in '99 and '00, or HAMILTON and ALONSO in '07. His team mate was a part of his arsenal, for that you have to hand it to the guy I guess, still, it made F1 painfully boring ,thank god McLAren is finally after all these years slowly re-asserting itself on top.

[Gt_R]

Andrew, firstly, given that this thread is really about Mclaren and their 'strategy' i think it's only reasonable we stick to it. Constantly dragging Ferrari into this incident doesn't justify anything.

Melbourne 98, i think you'd find many versions from Ron. Post-race, he said it's DC's call, but when DC moved to Redbull, he said it was Ron's call, and after Monaco, Ron in effect said that Melbourne 98 was a team call (ie not DC's voluntary act).

Interesting you brought up 99. Yes, Michael drove a hard race in Sepang, and Mika said it was one of the toughest race he drove. MS simply held him back. I don't know what you were trying to say about DC doing that back because MS is not contending for WDC in 1999.

However, i believe you may be talkiing about a particular season finale (2000, Japan?), where DC held MS up while being lapped, and that i am pretty sure isn't quite right. Sepang 99 MS vs Mika is a fight for 2nd, not lapped.

Furthermore, it may be hard for you to comprehend, but in terms of quality/proven, I think Rubens and Massa are as talented as any teammates Alonso or Mika had in their championship challenging years, if not more. And much better than JV or Frentzen. And as much as you try to believe otherwise, Mika and Alonso had just as much "help' from their teammates in the years that they won their WDCs too, and Alonso has not made it a secret of his desire to be in a "no.1" status with a teammate to help.

And team orders were very specifically disallowed AFTER Austria 2002, and you may find it that Ferrari issues you raised happened before.

And once again, incidents like Jerez 97, and Spa 2000 are overlooked, where Mclaren are suspiciously having made some interesting "strategic" calls.

But back to topic directly, the FIA statement is out, and the outcome is expected. There is simply no way FIA can punish Mclaren without raising an eyebrow, for its ridiculous to disallow teams from making calls such as "holding station" or detect manipulated pitstops. And rightly so, team orders are much part of the game, from the early years of Gilles right til today... I believe that there is a line to draw within professional and unprofessional calls, and a team is allowed to order within their team who they wish to win, as long as they do not deliberately fix results with other teams or set the 2nd driver to be a road barge or menace.

It's unforunate that the British media and paranoid fans 'forced' FIA to act and even investigate, as any wrong decisions may set a dangerous precedence.

Too bad that a dominant display of pace, and the 150th landmark win (which could not have been at a better place), is being clouded by an unneccessary uproar triggered by Hamilton's harmless yet cheeky "i am the no.2 driver" comment.

[DSM]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Andrew,...
... comment.

HEAR! HEAR! Spot on.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Andrew, firstly, given that this thread is really about Mclaren and their 'strategy' i think it's only reasonable we stick to it. Constantly dragging Ferrari into this incident doesn't justify anything.

A few words later...

Originally Posted by Gt_R same post moments later

Yes, Michael...
...Rubens and Massa...
...Austria 2002...
...Gilles...
...deliberately fix...

What? I think it is funny.

Constantly dragging in? Now you wouldn't guilty of doing that with past race examples would you?

The above is a little funny! Reminds me of Wrex's "if you change the names".

However I must just say:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Mika and Alonso had just as much "help' from their teammates in the years that they won their WDCs too, and Alonso has not made it a secret of his desire to be in a "no.1" status with a teammate to help.

This just isn't true. Firstly why would DC finish ahead of races like Spa 1999 if this was the case? Especially when the points race was so close.
And if it was the case at Renault why would Alonso complain he wasn't getting the full attention?

You should argue that Ferrari actually played the game better in that respect and did help the driver more, as is their prerogative. To assert that the other teams did more is to miss an advantage that Ferrari played and played well.

[Gt_R]

AA, with all respect due, i'm guilty of dragging Ferrari in myself to clarify and answer issues posed by Andrew.

And "To assert that the other teams did more", well i don't think i said Mclaren did more than Ferrari, if that's what you are trying to imply. My position is just that Mclaren, like Ferrari, and Renault are all teams who will resort to use team strategies/orders to maxximise their results. Frankly, playing "well" or not playing well doesn't mean that others don't do it.

And please spare me the "Mclaren doesn't use team orders because...Spa 1999" type of logic. I could have said "Michael is signed as a slave to Irvine because of Sepang 1999". I do not deny that Mclaren has admirably allowed their drivers to race in certain conditions which may be negative on their WDC charge, which i applaud them, but Mclaren has their fair share of using team 'strategies', which is their prerogative, and should not be denied or swept away.

Let's just say that a lawyer puts this question, did Mclaren ever use team orders/strategies to determine the race positions of their drivers in just yes and no, it is difficult for anybody to say no, and that applies to every other team on the grid.

The earlier we recognise team orders as a part of F1, for good or bad, then we can overcome it and avoid the uproar we see in Melbourne 98, Austria 02, and especially the unneccessary one in Monaco 07.

*frankly, if not for the media and Hamilton and Ron saying what they did, i don't think anybody would have noticed that there were any calls from Ron at all. Mclaren is as good as playing the game as anyone.