IMSA Should we be worried about the future of GTD?

[Rcz]

They should slow the cars around 5 or more seconds.

[NaBUru38]

How about no rear wing?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Rcz

They should slow the cars around 5 or more seconds.

That would just mean straight-up replacing them with GT4 cars.

[Rcz]

Perhaps they should make gt4 the new gt3, gt4 is a lesser clone of gt3 now anyway.

Make GT3 into GT2, and GTE into GT1

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Perhaps they should make gt4 the new gt3, gt4 is a lesser clone of gt3 now anyway.

Make GT3 into GT2, and GTE into GT1

And when GT4 becomes too expensive?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

And when GT4 becomes too expensive?

GT5. And when that's too expensive...turtles all the way down.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

GT5. And when that's too expensive...turtles all the way down.

This seems to be the cycle...

[chernaudi]

I agree with just replacing the classes with the next class just renamed. GTEs are as fast as GT1s were just a few years ago, and GT3s are as fast as GT2s were just a few years ago.

As with LMP1, everything seems to go in a cycle.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

How about no rear wing?

what

[Rcz]

Yeah, pretty much, GT4 is now alot more like grand-am gt and early gt3, then a entry-level class that your local doctor could take a spin in.

[jjvincent]

GT6 is the buzz that everyone is talking about. It'll be out in 2020 and some major cost cutting measures. Think, $600K for a 10 race season. Even though TCR is $500K per season today, it'll be $800K by 2020.

[NaBUru38]

GT3 -> GTR (for Ratel)
GT4 -> GTS (for Stéphane)

[MaskedRacer]

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/at...ction-efforts/

Now what is the best approach perhaps? I think IMSA almost needs to have a case by case system and decide of something is a "gentleman" driver or not. Ditch the formal silver driver rankings system?

I don't like the idea of having GTD for a race but not counting to the points. Just keep them out or keep them in. Maybe Watkins Glen can strip out GTD and then run DPI/GTLM on the short course. Maybe it could be a 4 hour race at that point? Maybe Laguna should drop GTD? Maybe Petit Le Mans can be just DPI/GTLM in the future since that track is smaller.

[chernaudi]

Watkins Glen and Road Atlanta are about the same length if you're talking about deleting the boot at WG.

Big problem is that if you get rid of GTD from the endurance races, you're going to shrink the field big time. Even for the sprint races the field will be significantly smaller.

I'd personally would like to know how much per hour it costs to run these cars, especially for paying drivers. Maybe on some weekends divide GTD from GTLM and Prototype and have their own shorter race on Saturday or Friday after the Sports Car Challenge races? IMO, it's always been a bit odd that the one dedicated pro-am class actually does the most hours worth or racing every season.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Watkins Glen and Road Atlanta are about the same length if you're talking about deleting the boot at WG.

Big problem is that if you get rid of GTD from the endurance races, you're going to shrink the field big time. Even for the sprint races the field will be significantly smaller.

I'd personally would like to know how much per hour it costs to run these cars, especially for paying drivers. Maybe on some weekends divide GTD from GTLM and Prototype and have their own shorter race on Saturday or Friday after the Sports Car Challenge races? IMO, it's always been a bit odd that the one dedicated pro-am class actually does the most hours worth or racing every season.

Proto/GTLM alone is fine. I think the races in the past they have had have been good. Watkins Glen with those two classes and no boot could work.

The bigger issue being GTD though does need a look. I think the driver ratings structure needs a complete overhaul. That is priority number 1. Next priority after that is to reduce the overall miles that GTD runs in a year.

I can't imagine too many GTD teams will take up the Sebring November race. If you want end of the year extra credit racing I think SRO's Laguna 8 or Creventic's COTA 24 are better choices

[MaskedRacer]

I don't have facebook or twitter and that stuff. Can someone do me a big favor and ask the Marshall Pruett podcast about this topic.

Would love to here Marshall and Graham have a prolonged discussion on how they would handle the GTD rising costs issue.

[Accident]

...What would cutting the boot off of Watkins Glen accomplish?

[chernaudi]

Other than making WG shorter than Road Atlanta in length, nothing much. Watkins Glen has more long straights and slower corners to allow for overtaking vs RA. RA has the Esses that are a difficult overtaking zone.

Fact is that both are endurance races and both would see fields shrink big time if GTD was dropped for one or both of them. However, it seems that having so many hours of racing is part of the problem.

Only "good" solution might be drop GTD from some of the sprint races or have their own separate "super sprint" race lasting maybe two hours tops on sprint weekends. So that was the drop in numbers isn't so pronounced but have GTD combine with Prototype and GTLM for some of the more major races.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Other than making WG shorter than Road Atlanta in length, nothing much. Watkins Glen has more long straights and slower corners to allow for overtaking vs RA. RA has the Esses that are a difficult overtaking zone.

Fact is that both are endurance races and both would see fields shrink big time if GTD was dropped for one or both of them. However, it seems that having so many hours of racing is part of the problem.

Only "good" solution might be drop GTD from some of the sprint races or have their own separate "super sprint" race lasting maybe two hours tops on sprint weekends. So that was the drop in numbers isn't so pronounced but have GTD combine with Prototype and GTLM for some of the more major races.

Ok so the Glen idea is not good. I got it. Your idea in the last paragraph of this comment is not a bad one either. I think we'll see at Long Beach how a DPI/GTLM only field works. It must be said that I would not want to see our awesome all GT races at Lime Rock and VIR changed at all.

[TheMightyM]

Change is coming to GTD in 2019, though exactly what that means is still being figured out:

IMSA President Scott Atherton says to expect “material change” to the GT Daytona class next year, in a concerted effort to reduce costs for competitors.

The GT3-based category, which has seen an influx of manufacturer support in recent years, has been hit with skyrocketing budgets, largely triggered by the increased professionalism in the Pro-Am-enforced platform.

More here from Sportscar 365.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Change is coming to GTD in 2019, though exactly what that means is still being figured out:



More here from Sportscar 365.

They've said that every year since the Merger. They'll do something stupid that might drop budgets 5-10% (and it'll take away more than 5-10% of the value for those already paying to enter), but won't do anything substantial enough to seriously effect what's driving the increased budgets -- especially while WeatherTech is running a car in the class.

-mike

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

They've said that every year since the Merger. They'll do something stupid that might drop budgets 5-10% (and it'll take away more than 5-10% of the value for those already paying to enter), but won't do anything substantial enough to seriously effect what's driving the increased budgets -- especially while WeatherTech is running a car in the class.

-mike

Is there actually anything you can do to reduce costs other than reduce the number of races or move away from GT3 machinery?

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

They've said that every year since the Merger. They'll do something stupid that might drop budgets 5-10% (and it'll take away more than 5-10% of the value for those already paying to enter), but won't do anything substantial enough to seriously effect what's driving the increased budgets -- especially while WeatherTech is running a car in the class.

-mike

Look up the story about BK racing and their bankruptcy. Travel was 8.9% of the budget. As we all know, those teams travel way more than in IMSA. You bring up a great point because cutting out a race not only reduces the value of the class but it does little for the overall budget.

If IMSA drops another race, the overall budget will go down 5-10%. Only problem, is IMSA, the suppliers and manufacturers are going to raise their prices by that much for 2019 anyway. So in the end, 10 races for the same cost as 11 in 2018 or 12 in 2017.

The solution should be that every time Atherton says "stakeholders" he needs to pay each team $1000. By the end of the season that will actually cut the budget instead of just talking about reducing the budget while you are actually increasing it.

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by joeb

Is there actually anything you can do to reduce costs other than reduce the number of races or move away from GT3 machinery?

GT3 has jumped the shark and there's no turning back. We have repeated history yet again. Here's the issue. Rich guys that fund these teams through rentals, exist on different tiers when it comes to spending. They are rich by not spending the principal. That means a certain budget each year to throw at racing. So, if you have $2M per year to spend and if it costs $2.8M to run GTD, you obviously can't run a full season in GTD. So you move to GS and rent a seat for Daytona and Sebring in GTD. It's that simple.

The manufacturers that make GT3 cars and the sanctioning bodies that promote driver rankings along with BoP never listen to the renters and as IMSA calls them "stakeholders". In the end, they move to GS or GTS. Now the manufacturers and sanctioning bodies all walk around patting themselves on the back because of this new global cost effective class. Problem is, they just watched GT3 start to dwindle.

If you notice, PWC had a massive celebration with a big number of GTS cars for COTA yet the total number of entries has not changed over the last few years (it's still running around 100). All of the big changes they mads has resulted in a net zero change. Same for IMSA.

GT3 needs to be dropped and GT4 needs to take it's place. Put a freeze on all GT4 development and put a max price on the class for the purchase price. Also, no more special factory teams that run a year all by themselves then run the following season with no customers. If you can't sell a customer car, then you just don't run. No evo or update kits and make manufacturers support the previous model for at least 3 years. Then to replace GT4 make GT5 and then revert to the old GS rules. No aero, actual legit cars (no Panoz, KTM, SIN...), no carbon bodywork, stock suspension components and no 50K gearboxes. Literally what GS was 5 years ago.

For the sanctioning bodies, limit tires per event and make one that is harder, slower and you can double stint. Change the fuel supplier where everyone has to run 93 octane unleaded and thus the price is less than half of what it is now. Prize money, right now it's either the top 3-5 get anything. Make it the top 15 at a minimum. Stop the different tiers of entrants. Go back to the GA and old IMSA days where you pay a set entry fee and it can be done up until 5 days before the first practice session. After that, a 10% penalty. Stop charging for T&S and make it a basic service. That way every team is equal and can use their brain for strategy. Reduce the rulebook by 50% so teams are not getting dinged for frivolous violations that ruin your race.

[RedSquirrel]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

GT3 has jumped the shark and there's no turning back.
snip
GT3 needs to be dropped and GT4 needs to take it's place.
snip
Stop charging for T&S and make it a basic service. That way every team is equal and can use their brain for strategy.

Agreed re: GT3. Costs have become ridiculous, even just to buy a car. I'd say that if GTE was used in as many championships as GT3 is, Porsche would be able to sell the RSR for roughly current GT3 prices rather than €900,000 advertised last year. (Mr. Hedlund will probably tell me I'm delusional. )

I was going to disagree with replacing GT3 with GT4 in WSC. The speed differential seems just too big between GT4 cars and what are effectively (pace-wise) first-gen Audi R18s. But at Sebring in 2003, the Bentleys were doing 1:48s in qually, many of the GT2 Porsches and Ferraris were doing 2:09/2:10. GT4 pole at the weekend was 2:11. So it's plausible.

Also, teams have to pay for timing? Is this standard practise in other championships?