Should we run our historic cars in period livery?

[terence]

Originally Posted by jonners

No - the gold paint applied by Alan Mann had gold leaf in it. Lotus green is Citreon sherwood green.

Right!

[COLIN STUBBS]

and what if we livery up a couple of our rover gtis in their original colours to run in pre93? wont toyo complain if we have a lot of dunlop on em?? race cars look great in original livery but i reckon they look naff when its a mixture of old and new. i say do what you want for racing[but try and do it sympatheticly for the period they came from]. except pure nostalgia stuff like goodwood.... and series organisers,please think a bit more about what you want us to stick on our cars!

[Al Weyman]

I was thinking of older cars than the pre-93 Colin to be honest but I guess the same rules could apply.

[COLIN STUBBS]

i know you did al but the point is that all you get are lots of cars that are all the same colour.when we used to race in pre 65 when it was new, there would often be over a dozen mk1 cortinas all white and varying shades of green.whos up for a hammonds chop sauce capri next year then?? go well with the ctcrc bbq!

[Al Weyman]

Yes I guess you may be right, anyhow why should you advertise and not be paid.

[ART Racing]

Al and Colin, the point with what Australia has done is that the cars are all the original race cars - no replicas involved. You can't just get any car, put it in an old livery and race it - it has to actually be that original, log booked car. We race against the same cars we raced in the 70's and 80's, in their original form, not against modified standard cars. Same as you have in the open wheel historic categories which only allow original cars. As these are proper historic categories, you are allowed to carry all the original tobacco sponsorship etc, but no new sponsorship, and we don't have a series sponsor or anything like that. Free advertising? Yes, although half the firms involved are now defunct, most of the cars are at least 20 years old after all. Still, my local suppliers still help out, just to help get the car out there, and they know that the cars are loved and closely scrutinised by the fans in the pits, so their message gets across. As far as 'poor' replicas of the colour schemes - haven't seen a bad one lately, all the cars look fabulous, if not better than when new. And lots of good, close racing.

Cuts down the gene pool on the number of cars you can use - I would think somewhere between 150 and 200 genuine ex touring cars in Australia which would be eligible for Group C and A (1973-1992), but more are slowly appearing as barns get opened.

Have a look at www.groupc.org.au Rules, reasons, photos etc there, will get across what we are trying to achieve.

John

[terence]

In the UK ,I think you,ll find that de-funct or not the various brand names are still retained by the various cigarette manufactures.Thats w here the problem starts.

[zefarelly]

Alan MAnn paint had gold dust in it, not gold leaf. . .apparently. it certainly wasn't HAlford rattle can gold anyway !

I know what you meant Johnners

and Sherwood Green on LC stripes isn't the same as Landrover/farmyard green applied with a sh*tty stick !

I've seem some atrocious varioations on ermine white as well in recent years !

[terence]

Your absolutly correct Zef, the closest thing we had over here was Metalflake, but that did not really come into use until the early 70s, you just went up a couple of sizes on the spray gun nozle.As for Ermine White from what I remember from my restoration days,there used to be 7 different shades.

[Steve Wilkinson]

As far as I am aware if a particular model of race car (e.g. Lotus 72) ran with a tobacco companies logo on it (Gold Leaf &/or John Player Special) the current owner is permitted to run the car in the EXACT livery of the period. However if a car never ran with for example Marlboro livery (e.g. McLaren M7A) then it is now NOT permitted to run with that livery.

I have noticed several people running Lotus models with Gold Leaf livery which is inappropriate for that particular model; however they get away with it by removing the wording GOLD LEAF and the John Player's sailor logo. It would also be permissable to replace the GOLD LEAF wording with some thing else (e.g. GOOD LEAP). It is all a bit messy and doesn't always seem to be enforced. I have seen cars with the full GOLD LEAF livery having to have gaffer tape stuck over the offending areas.

I would just say that as an historic racing car fan I am appalled that some owner/drivers should wish to have their cars painted in anything other than the original livery! Similarly I would be inclined to replicate as near as was permitted the driver's helmet colour scheme so that the entire package looked as close to the original as possible.

[terence]

I think your totally correct in that the cars should be as near correct as is posibble but, as for the helmet painting,you often see these people with a Senna type design,there was only ONE person ever who was entitled to use that colour scheme,replicate the colour scheme,now replicate the driver!

[jonners]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Alan MAnn paint had gold dust in it, not gold leaf. . .apparently

Aha - sorry about that - in my anxiety to make the point about the Alan Mann red/gold livery Team Lotus Gold Leaf confusion i confused myself - the point I was trying to make is that the story about gold being in the gold paint is true...or at least it was so far as CTC 24E (mk 2 Lotus Cortina) is concerned

[Tainan]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

As far as I am aware if a particular model of race car (e.g. Lotus 72) ran with a tobacco companies logo on it (Gold Leaf &/or John Player Special) the current owner is permitted to run the car in the EXACT livery of the period. However if a car never ran with for example Marlboro livery (e.g. McLaren M7A) then it is now NOT permitted to run with that livery.

No, it has to be the actual car, not just one of the same model.

[Al Weyman]

But as I have said what exactly is the actual genuine car, what happens if it is reshelled, is it still the actual car, thats the problem with saloons. The IROC NASCAR car I am renovating just has to be original as the whole thing is just one massive rollcage tube chassis and the only GM bodywork was the roof (which is intact and original) and the rear quarters which will get damaged in the cars lifetime and will be replaced no doubt, all the rest is just glass fiber. I bet there are many so called 'genuine' cars out there that are just the sum of the bits.

[terence]

There are more of those cars than you think Al, a lot of "the" cars are merely the original chassis numbers.There was once a case of a GT40,the car had been declared a write off by Ford,the chassis eventualy landed up in the Thames,a couple of guys learnt of its whereabouts cut out the chassis number,a wealthy person had a completely "new"car built!!.It used to happen a lot in the seventys,it seem as though history is going full circle again.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Tainan

No, it has to be the actual car, not just one of the same model.

Interesting. So who keeps THE list of the chassis numbers to ensure that no one slips in a ringer?

[terence]

If I knew that I,d be a wealthy man! The FIA I belive have such a list.Apart from that theres British Heritage, they can usally obtain the info needed.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by zac510

275 GTB-4, don't the rules for Classic Adelaide, and perhaps other road rallies, require a paint colour that the car originally came in?

Maybe...dunno...I was talking about tarmac RACING in Australia (Group C)....not tarmac road rallies.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

But as I have said what exactly is the actual genuine car, what happens if it is reshelled, is it still the actual car, thats the problem with saloons. The IROC NASCAR car I am renovating just has to be original as the whole thing is just one massive rollcage tube chassis and the only GM bodywork was the roof (which is intact and original) and the rear quarters which will get damaged in the cars lifetime and will be replaced no doubt, all the rest is just glass fiber. I bet there are many so called 'genuine' cars out there that are just the sum of the bits.

I suspect that's the case right across the board with historic race and rally cars of all kinds- I'd guess there are a lot of cars, whether they be saloons, sportscars or single-seaters which are basically 'grandpa's axe'- several new engines, a replacement chassis and lots of replacement bodywork along the way, but it's still the same car- at least, as terence said, the chassis plate is original...

If you're building a historic saloon up from a roadcar or bare shell, then I don't mind how you paint it, so long as it looks reasonably historically appropriate without too much in the way on 21st century sponsors graphics.

On the other hand, if you're running something which has any claim to a period racing history, I'd much rather see it looking something like it did when originally raced, in a colourscheme that's appropriate for some part of that car's history

[terence]

I used to run a restoration shop for a very well known collector of works cars, mainly BMC,Ford etc, its amazeing how accurate you can make these cars look ,just by studying original photos.We would take measurements from a known reference and take it from there.Bastos SD1 was probably the most difficult,but when it was completed there was no difference to the original scheme.

[Al Weyman]

So wat is deemed as the original bit, the roll cage? No it can't be that as a lot had alloy cages and they had to be changed. :-)

[terence]

In the case of the SD1 that would have been difficult,welded cage!

[Peter Mallett]

[Schoolboy humour]Anybody recall the Tampax Ginetta?[/Schoolboy humour]

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

[Schoolboy humour]Anybody recall the Tampax Ginetta?[/Schoolboy humour]

No, but I remember the Durex Lola. There was a story that it picked up 2 puntures in it's first test session

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

[Schoolboy humour]Anybody recall the Tampax Ginetta?[/Schoolboy humour]

I remember it was a bloody good car :-)

No, but I remember the Durex Lola. There was a story that it picked up 2 puntures in it's first test session

Did'nt that had 'Buy me and stop one' written on the side?