Women in Circuit Racing

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by speedreader

I have a very close involvement with people driving cars...C'mon girls, start stepping up to the plate & working for it

Just to be clear, that was mountainstar's post.

Originally Posted by speedreader

To be successful in motor sport you need more than raw talent. You need knowledge, experience, support, persistence & a fairly large dose of luck.

Yeah, I know. After all...you know...I mean...I am a formerf1champ...

[speedreader]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ
Yeah, I know. After all...you know...I mean...I am a formerf1champ...

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Yes you probably can, but can you give us the same long list of women that have won championships, no you cant, which is what we are talking about.

There is an INFINITELY longer list of MEN who havent won championships so I am failing (by some distance) to remotely see your point ...

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by deeks6

There is an INFINITELY longer list of MEN who havent won championships so I am failing (by some distance) to remotely see your point ...

Agreed deeks6, probably because there are more males than females the list of non winning men would have to be longer.

If you have or haven't read the whole thread the question is WHY hasn't a female driver ever won a Major motor racing championship in a circuit racing type class like V8 Supercars, Indy Cars, F1, BTCC, F3, GermanTCC etc.etc.

[peckstar]

2 questions, has a women ever done the v8 supercar championship (not just enduros) when was the last time one did F1

Also apart from indy cars are there women full time in those series (does indy have one in 2012?)

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Agreed deeks6, probably because there are more males than females the list of non winning men would have to be longer.

If you have or haven't read the whole thread the question is WHY hasn't a female driver ever won a Major motor racing championship in a circuit racing type class like V8 Supercars, Indy Cars, F1, BTCC, F3, GermanTCC etc.etc.

I have read the whole thread but you appear to be determined to maintain the argument on your terms, as in "major" championships, despite the massive body of evidence that illustrates the number of successful women in (various forms of) motor sport. You ignore the fact that the numbers alone are against them - the men would outnumber them 1000-1 at least but lets continue.
The simple fact is that women are still not regarded seriously in motor sport and therefore are never afforded drives in major championships and, on the rare occaisions that they are, not in competitive equipment. The only exception that I can recall is the much maligned Danica Patrick but the fact is she is competitive, deserves her seat and is better than 99% of male race car drivers (go back and look at her British FF Festival performance at age 18). The aforementioned Lella Lombardi was a top driver (saw her as a kid racing Matich and the best Aussies) who drove rubbish cars in F1, same as Desiree Wilson. Janet Guthrie, Katherine Legge, (the ultra georgeous) Mika Duno and our own Leanne Tander (an ounce of luck would have won the Gold Star) also spring to mind. I could probably think of others if I put my mind to it but the fact is none of them were driving McLarens, RBRs, 888 touring cars or Team Audi sports cars. None of them had the mollycoddled "destined for greatness" upbringing of Hamilton (or Vettel or Dale Jnr or Michael Andretti or insert other "next big thing" name). Patrick unashamedly uses her glamour and good on her because I'll bet you my house if she was ugly, she would not have had the opportunities she has (despite a considerable amount of talent on the track).
Now note well that I am by no means arguing that women are as good, better or worse than men at motor sport but until you find me a level playing field for them, I'll say that the argument has no answer.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by deeks6

I have read the whole thread but you appear to be determined to maintain the argument on your terms, as in "major" championships, despite the massive body of evidence that illustrates the number of successful women in (various forms of) motor sport. You ignore the fact that the numbers alone are against them - the men would outnumber them 1000-1 at least but lets continue.
The simple fact is that women are still not regarded seriously in motor sport and therefore are never afforded drives in major championships and, on the rare occaisions that they are, not in competitive equipment. The only exception that I can recall is the much maligned Danica Patrick but the fact is she is competitive, deserves her seat and is better than 99% of male race car drivers (go back and look at her British FF Festival performance at age 18). The aforementioned Lella Lombardi was a top driver (saw her as a kid racing Matich and the best Aussies) who drove rubbish cars in F1, same as Desiree Wilson. Janet Guthrie, Katherine Legge, (the ultra georgeous) Mika Duno and our own Leanne Tander (an ounce of luck would have won the Gold Star) also spring to mind. I could probably think of others if I put my mind to it but the fact is none of them were driving McLarens, RBRs, 888 touring cars or Team Audi sports cars. None of them had the mollycoddled "destined for greatness" upbringing of Hamilton (or Vettel or Dale Jnr or Michael Andretti or insert other "next big thing" name). Patrick unashamedly uses her glamour and good on her because I'll bet you my house if she was ugly, she would not have had the opportunities she has (despite a considerable amount of talent on the track).
Now note well that I am by no means arguing that women are as good, better or worse than men at motor sport but until you find me a level playing field for them, I'll say that the argument has no answer.

That's not what I see out there. Maybe in the olden days, but I think women are given all the opportunities men get, maybe even more so. Women drivers just are not a new thing on the scene anymore and often a lot of people look to them as an avenue for new sponsorship or promotional activities. I've never seen anyone look down at women drivers or restrict their opportunities and often I've seen quite the opposite first hand. It's funny how if a man is selected over a woman, it can be viewed as discrimination, yet if a woman is overtly and openly selected over a man, solely because she is a woman and it is stated as such, that is perfectly OK.

Motorsport is expensive and it has to be funded by someone or some entity, so I think most team owners out there are just pleased if they get a nice big check and it clears the bank, whether they are a woman or not, doesn't really figure.

And then the other part comes down to results and a lot of women drivers so far just don't get the results to warrant a full blown pro ride. There is only so far check writing can take you.

In regards to danica, her dad by his own admission, spent $500,000 just to get her started in Formula Ford, before she was able to pick up some patronage and then was able to work it to land commercial sponsorship. She has played a savvy card on the PR side and generates her own sponsorship and revenue. But results wise, at the level she competes at, she has been mediocre. She never won a race in her life in a car until she was gifted a irl win a few years ago at Motegi and finally having squeezed the irl all she can, away she moves to nascar for a few years. She has been successful as a sports personality but not as a driver.

Milka Duno? Absolutely terrible and she is merely an old school moneyed connected aristocrat that had no business behind the wheel of any car. She was a traffic hazard anytime on track. Finally even the irl with it's low standards, had to ask her politely it was time to call time on her irl career before someone got hurt.

Having been through my share of hard knocks and setbacks, as well as some success, I just believe now that motorsport is hard cocktail to get right if you are looking to make a professional career out of it. It takes talent, lots of money, knowledge, experience, fitness, PR skills, excellent, well prepared equipment and that mechanical and engineering talent to make all that go, as well as making good connections with the right people and often being in the right place at the right time.

It's like standing in a chemistry lab on a skateboard trying to mix all the right chemicals together and if you get it wrong it blows up in your face. I think men have the exact same challenges a woman is going to have as a driver. It's just a tough business and always will be and if you can't stand the heat get out of the oven.

[Woolley]

I think it's mainly down to numbers. To find a handful of champions a year at the top levels you probably find that 1/10000* who take up the sport are good enough and 1/1000 of those get sufficient cash. On that basis it's going to take more years worth of women entering the sport before you find that odd one who's good enough and has the backing.

Danica Patrick was probably good enough to get to where she did - as mentioned, that FF performance indicated talent - and her results have been no more mediocre than a number of men over the same period.

There is no obvious reason that a female Vettell isn't out there somewhere, they just haven't come into the sport.

*note, all statistics made up on the spot, just intended to be indicative of the problem!

[speedreader]

Originally Posted by mountainstar
I think men have the exact same challenges a woman is going to have as a driver.

Sorry mountainstar, whilst I agree with most of what you said I cannot agree with the above statement, at least not here in Australia...

Males can gain experience in relative obscurity & then start to shine when they deliver results whereas from the moment females step into a race car they are singled out, for good & bad. Therefore it is a LOT harder from a female to get to a level where she is considered a serious race car driver. Until then she almost constantly faces condescending comments (almost bordering on insults at times) & has a lot tougher challenge to get past junior level classes.

A perfect example of this 'attitude' was a comment I heard a male spectator say at Archerfield Speedway last Saturday when he realised there was a female sprintcar competitor in the field PRIOR to the start of the race. He said "Wow, I'm surprised they let a female drive a sprintcar, surely they are way too fast & dangerous for females...'

Even the likes of Leanne Tander, who certainly ran a very competitive F3 car & had/has the surname to command attention, still struggled to gain sponsorship. Also, because she was more often than not the only female competing she faced ridicule & criticism for EVERY mistake she made throughout her career whereas the guys collectively could make the same mistakes whilst gaining experience without mention.

It's not easy for anyone to make it to the top level in motor racing but I do feel there are some additional challenges a female faces in her efforts to get there

[bella]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It's like standing in a chemistry lab on a skateboard trying to mix all the right chemicals together and if you get it wrong it blows up in your face. I think men have the exact same challenges a woman is going to have as a driver. It's just a tough business and always will be and if you can't stand the heat get out of the oven.

i take this quote but really what i want to agree with is that it's a mix of what you say and what speedreader says.

it's incredibly situational. everyone regardless of gender faces the same challenges, and depending on the exact person depends on how big those challenges are to them. gender role defining stuff we're exposed to as kids mean we're subject to different levels and types of educations. the way our parents support us can prejudge how we take on a particular challenge and how far we persist.

that goes for the girls working in engineering as well as behind the wheel. some bosses will judge you far, far harder than any man interviewing for the same job. instead of looking at what skills you *have* got, as a woman you're often judged by what skills you *haven't* got, in comparison to anyone, man or woman. in fact, you can find that you're treated badly just to see if they can get a negative reaction out of you, demonstrate some form of gender related weakness. there's also plenty of guys out there in positions of management (not just in motorsport) who will give you a chance, talk a good deal then when you actually have to make it clear in words of one syllable you're not going to sleep with them they'll drop you like a stone and never speak to you again.

unfortunately, the muppetry demonstrated by the sexist, unpleasant few really tar the brush of the the vast majority of guys and managers who couldn't care less if you're a girl, they're only interested in your skills and what you can bring to a team.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Milka Duno? Absolutely terrible and she is merely an old school moneyed connected aristocrat that had no business behind the wheel of any car. She was a traffic hazard anytime on track. Finally even the irl with it's low standards, had to ask her politely it was time to call time on her irl career before someone got hurt.

Duno won four Grand-Am races and collected two LMP675 wins at Petit Le Mans. Now she's tacking ARCA with grat success. It's just Indy cars she can't drive properlly.

Originally Posted by peckstar

apart from indy cars are there women full time in those series (does indy have one in 2012?)

Simona de Silvestro is confirmed, Kahy Legge and Ana Breatriz Figueiredo are probable, Pippa Mann is possible.

[bella]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Duno won four Grand-Am races and collected two LMP675 wins at Petit Le Mans. Now she's tacking ARCA with grat success. It's just Indy cars she can't drive properlly.

not wanting to pick, but it's only the other ones you mention where she can be teamed with better drivers who can carry her and hide her abilities, or lack of.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by speedreader

Sorry mountainstar, whilst I agree with most of what you said I cannot agree with the above statement, at least not here in Australia...

Males can gain experience in relative obscurity & then start to shine when they deliver results whereas from the moment females step into a race car they are singled out, for good & bad. Therefore it is a LOT harder from a female to get to a level where she is considered a serious race car driver. Until then she almost constantly faces condescending comments (almost bordering on insults at times) & has a lot tougher challenge to get past junior level classes.

A perfect example of this 'attitude' was a comment I heard a male spectator say at Archerfield Speedway last Saturday when he realised there was a female sprintcar competitor in the field PRIOR to the start of the race. He said "Wow, I'm surprised they let a female drive a sprintcar, surely they are way too fast & dangerous for females...'

Even the likes of Leanne Tander, who certainly ran a very competitive F3 car & had/has the surname to command attention, still struggled to gain sponsorship. Also, because she was more often than not the only female competing she faced ridicule & criticism for EVERY mistake she made throughout her career whereas the guys collectively could make the same mistakes whilst gaining experience without mention.

It's not easy for anyone to make it to the top level in motor racing but I do feel there are some additional challenges a female faces in her efforts to get there

We all have our own anecdotal experiences, so I wouldn't rule out people making harsh comments based on the fact a particular driver is a woman.

However I don't think it's any different as a man. The biggest disappointment I've had in the business is how many egomaniacs and control freaks there are out there. There are people that even over the most trivial thing would knife you in the back, spread gossip and do whatever it takes to undermine you. I've seen some really nasty stuff, most not really warranted, just people with big egos that will squash anyone or intimidate them for kicks to get whatever advantage they perceive.

I just think it's a hard business and you've got to have a tough skin and some big filters on your ears. As I said if you can't stand the heat get out of the oven. You just have to accept you might be called every name in the book, you might have any mistake pointed out, you might get heavily criticized, so on, just the way it is.

That said you'll also come across some amazingly helpful and friendly people and I have no doubt in my mind there are plenty of people out there that have no issues with women drivers at all and would be completely supportive.

I think Leanne Tander did pretty well and she always seemed to at least have some sponsorship. I would have liked to see her run a bit more in the developmental series. She is at least talented enough to have a GT drive or in Carrera Cup. Is she a high level V8SC driver though that can command a drive like her husband has? At the moment I don't believe so. And she chose to get pregnant and have a family so that limits her career options at the moment.

I love women drivers, but I chaff at them getting handled with cushy gloves or getting some special status or treatment just because they are women.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Duno won four Grand-Am races and collected two LMP675 wins at Petit Le Mans. Now she's tacking ARCA with grat success. It's just Indy cars she can't drive properlly.


Simona de Silvestro is confirmed, Kahy Legge and Ana Breatriz Figueiredo are probable, Pippa Mann is possible.

Did she win those races on her own?

It was well, well known that her co drivers were well, well paid and that they had to drive the pants off the car to get those placings. And often she only drove the bare minimum of time required as a co driver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzQ2TErl7cw

That's just one clip but I've seen others.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Milka Duno? Absolutely terrible and she is merely an old school moneyed connected aristocrat that had no business behind the wheel of any car. She was a traffic hazard anytime on track. Finally even the irl with it's low standards, had to ask her politely it was time to call time on her irl career before someone got hurt.

Having been through my share of hard knocks and setbacks, as well as some success,

With respect to your own "success", lets see your racing CV and see if it comes out as good as this:


• 2nd in the Venezuelan GT Championship
• 4th in the Venezuelan Porsche Supercup Championship
• won a Ferrari Challenge Race in the USA
• won her first Series Championship - The Panoz GT Series
• World Series by Nissan became the first woman to score points in this Championship
• 2nd in the LMP 675 Class of the American Le Mans Series, she scored an impressive four wins in this class - including the prestigious 10 hour Petit Le Mans - becoming the first woman to score a class win in this major international sportscar competition. In 2004 She scored yet another LMP 675 class win in Petit Le Mans
• 2nd 2007 24 Hours of Daytona
• Rolex Sports Car Series Milka scored three impressive and historical overall wins - twice at Homestead-Miami Speedway and once at Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant in Quebec. During her time competing in the Rolex Series Milka earned three overall wins, seven podium appearances, ten top five finishes and eighteen top ten finishes
• Qualified for Indy 500 twice

Hardly "absolutely terrible" ... and Patricks dad spent $500k on her? A drop in the ocean compared to the amounts wagered on other male "stars" who never had anywhere near the success that she has. Even in Australia, how much did the Kelly brothers dad fork out to get them into unbeatable equipment. Just because you fail to really adapt to one type of racing (IRL) doesnt mean you are no good. By your logic, NASCAR drivers are the best in the world because they are whipping the likes of Montoya, Ambrose etc who were successful in others.

Quite frankly I found your post quite condescending and typical of what the women face in motor sport. Their records will be "poo-pooed", sponsors are warned that they risk ridicule or even sexist backlashes by putting women in their cars. The politics generally win out and they are forced (a la Patrick) to turn themselves into a bit of a sideshow to survive.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by speedreader

Even the likes of Leanne Tander, who certainly ran a very competitive F3 car & had/has the surname to command attention, still struggled to gain sponsorship. Also, because she was more often than not the only female competing she faced ridicule & criticism for EVERY mistake she made throughout her career whereas the guys collectively could make the same mistakes whilst gaining experience without mention.

Exactly...same as for Patrick, Duno, Legge and all the others. I recall there was an uproar in the USA when Fisher? or Guthrie? (not sure which) had a huge crash and they were talking of wanting to ban women drivers from competing. They are always under far more scrutiny than the males.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Quite frankly I found your post quite condescending and typical of what the women face in motor sport. Their records will be "poo-pooed", sponsors are warned that they risk ridicule or even sexist backlashes by putting women in their cars. The politics generally win out and they are forced (a la Patrick) to turn themselves into a bit of a sideshow to survive.

You gave me my laugh for today because you are blowing it way out of proportion and way over dramatizing it and it seems you are taking it personally which you have no reason to as it has nothing to do with you. And if you think I am condescending towards women drivers you are way off the mark and that doesn't jive with real world reality.

The fact that milka's connections and money have been able to write a lot of checks to buy rides doesn't really impress me, any more than Jean Louis Deletraz or other similar aristocratic moneyed types that bought their way all the way through. If that excites you, then enjoy. It doesn't do anything for me personally. She is a traffic hazard racing in series way above her level of driving.

Just because I don't like milka doesn't have a thing to do with her being a woman. Like I said once we start handing out special treatment or that women drivers can't be criticized because they are women we go down a dangerous road that ruins the integrity of motor sport.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by deeks6

Exactly...same as for Patrick, Duno, Legge and all the others. I recall there was an uproar in the USA when Fisher? or Guthrie? (not sure which) had a huge crash and they were talking of wanting to ban women drivers from competing. They are always under far more scrutiny than the males.

You don't know which yet you make that allegation, Fisher who drove in the late 90s till the late oughties and Guthrie who drove in the 1970's? Which is it? I've never heard of any proposed ban on women drivers.

You also say they are under FAR more scrutiny than men, which is your opinion, not something that is a fact. I haven't seen that myself, in fact I think they get a pass these days.

I like Kat Legge. Yes she has flaws, but she won in Atlantics when danica failed to and she is a gritty, determined character who worked hard and overcame her share of setbacks.

[deeks6]

For those interested, good site on women in motor racing:
http://speedqueens.blogspot.com/
Common theme appears to be lack of funding when graduating to different classes but thats just my take
Some great stories though.

[stigette]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I love women drivers, but I chaff at them getting handled with cushy gloves or getting some special status or treatment just because they are women.

I think you will find most women drivers feel the same way mountainstar, they just want to be treated as equals - no 'special treatment' required

I believe that we will see a huge influx of women in the sport over the next 10-15 years as drivers, engineers, crew and administrators, and hopefully the purpose of this thread will be fulfilled!

[Bradley]

I think if they have the talent fine, they should be there but to be a gimmick.... it cheapens the ones that are there on talent...
It's hard though I've seen Danica go up to a nationwide or Cup series driver, I forget which and give em a big push and the like.. bit unfair when you know that if he laid a finger on her, even to push her away he' dprobably loose all his sponsership and career..

[peckstar]

Bradley , doesnt that occur with male racers though.

There are drivers out there who trade on name and not their current skill level, who are holding out drivers who have the skill, but not the name

Thats marketing and with motorsports being so marketing (budget) focused its chooses who gets to race and who doesnt

[bella]

Originally Posted by Bradley

I think if they have the talent fine, they should be there but to be a gimmick.... it cheapens the ones that are there on talent...

this is a fair point, albeit a difficult to articulate one. a female driver can set out to want to be treated just like the men, but in order to get sponsorship from companies you have to show you're different and worth the investment. as a woman, it's inevitable that either you have to state the obvious and say you're a woman so you'll be able to get more press, or the potential sponsor will think that. you can have an easier ride to getting a drive and money, perhaps, but it's much much harder to prove you're worthy of occupying a place on the grid with a decent team. i think you could probably parrallel the situation women drivers find themselves in to the one that daddy's sons do, the guys who drive for a team their dad owns and bankrolls. they're often uncomfortable with that, and subject to more scrutiny and criticism is more readily thrown, but in the end, on the circuit they're just the same as everyone else.

i think our press and modern society will extract whatever they want from women drivers - if they want them to be seen as sex symbols they'll do that regardless of whether the ladies in question have posed provocatively in their pants or not.

[PVDA]

There's one high profile driver who is family funded to keep him away from the family business.....

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by PVDA

There's one high profile driver who is family funded to keep him away from the family business.....

Shouldn't they just send him to work at McDonalds as a french fry cook instead? Would seem to be a lot cheaper to me.