Is Vettel's career over?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It was mentioned elsewhere that Indy will be on a different weekend to Monaco next year.

I mentioned it here #2343

[Adam43]

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It was mentioned elsewhere that Indy will be on a different weekend to Monaco next year.

well unfortunately for Seb, i dont think conflicting dates would have been a problem!

but it does raise the prospects of other current F1 drivers bouncing between the two series. would like to see something whereby an Indy driver could cross over as well...the new economic climate may even necessitate more convergence between the two open wheel series?

[DreamLine]

After the end of Schumacher’s career, the Germans lost interest in Formula One. TV Views fell very much. There was a new German racer - Vettel and interest in the Formula grew again. If Vettel leaves, then the Germans will stop watching Formula. Why? Spectators want a spectacle.

Vettel’s brother has long been riding the Nurburgring, but he is not known to many.

At the Nürburgring there are many spectacles ( including VLN and 24h crashes and more ). Good product for marketing.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by DreamLine

After the end of Schumacher’s career, the Germans lost interest in Formula One. TV Views fell very much. There was a new German racer - Vettel and interest in the Formula grew again. If Vettel leaves, then the Germans will stop watching Formula. Why? Spectators want a spectacle.

Vettel’s brother has long been riding the Nurburgring, but he is not known to many.

At the Nürburgring there are many spectacles ( including VLN and 24h crashes and more ). Good product for marketing.

Mick and David might re-spark the German passion.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by DreamLine

Yes, sir. They need a famous face to push the racing series. Few people in the world know about her. The name of the series was changed, now we need a racer, like a magnet.
Long ago, there was talk of M. Schumacher. Now he is gone and another cool racing pilot is needed ( from Germany ).

Vettel and Hamilton together at Mercedes would boost the profile of both F1 and Mercedes through the roof, we'd all watch that!

[DreamLine]

Originally Posted by wnut

Vettel and Hamilton together at Mercedes would boost the profile of both F1 and Mercedes through the roof, we'd all watch that!

No doubt.

[Casper]

I still think he used the unusual aspects of this year to give Ferrari the finger and tell them to put their offer where the sun does not shine. In a normal year that would place him in a very difficult position but this year he has a good part of it to see what is what with very little pressure or threat in actually having a drive next year but if Renault walked that would change. It would be easy to assume that his announcement would have an effect on Ferrari's decision making and team performance if & when racing resumes and the same for Renault & McLaren to a lesser degree.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Casper

I still think he used the unusual aspects of this year to give Ferrari the finger and tell them to put their offer where the sun does not shine.

Except Binotto confirmed that Ferrari never made Vettel any offer for him to refuse. Binotto had decided Vettel was not part of the Ferrari plan before Christmas.... a fact seemingly confirmed by Zac Brown of McLaren being told by Sainz of discussions with Ferrari for 2021 pre Christmas. In addition the Ferrari statement regarding Vettel's exit never mentioned of any offer having been made or of Vettel declining anything.

It seems Vettel's (lack of) future at Ferrari was decided by Binotto after Vettel took both cars out of the Brazil race.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferra...-new-contract/

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by E.B

Except Binotto confirmed that Ferrari never made Vettel any offer for him to refuse. Binotto had decided Vettel was not part of the Ferrari plan before Christmas.... a fact seemingly confirmed by Zac Brown of McLaren being told by Sainz of discussions with Ferrari for 2021 pre Christmas. In addition the Ferrari statement regarding Vettel's exit never mentioned of any offer having been made or of Vettel declining anything.

It seems Vettel's (lack of) future at Ferrari was decided by Binotto after Vettel took both cars out of the Brazil race.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferra...-new-contract/

That is a very speculative article.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Skam85

That is a very speculative article.

Backed by facts like Ferrari talking to Sainz, confirmed by Zak Brown, pre Christmas (same time Ferrari signed Leclerc for the next few years), and Binotto's confirmation of no deal ever offered to Vettel was quoted widely, with no denial from Binotto or Vettel.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Skam85

That is a very speculative article.

Backed by facts like Ferrari talking to Sainz, confirmed by Zak Brown, pre Christmas (same time Ferrari signed Leclerc for the next few years), and Binotto's confirmation of no deal ever offered to Vettel was quoted widely, with no denial from either Binotto or Vettel as to that.

Binotto actually said Ferrari and Vettel were no longer on the same path and Ferrari wanted to plan for the future.

"We closed a cycle with Sebastian, it’s been six years he has been working in our team. I admire Sebastian as a person and as a driver. I hold him in great esteem.

"Over the last weeks, the world has changed, not only from an economic point of view but also from a technical and sporting point of view.

"There are challenges and obstacles ahead. We are laying the foundations for our future. And we want to have a specific perspective.

"We discussed it with Sebastian and we found out we didn’t share the same short or long-term goals."

.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by E.B

Except Binotto confirmed that Ferrari never made Vettel any offer for him to refuse. Binotto had decided Vettel was not part of the Ferrari plan before Christmas.... a fact seemingly confirmed by Zac Brown of McLaren being told by Sainz of discussions with Ferrari for 2021 pre Christmas. In addition the Ferrari statement regarding Vettel's exit never mentioned of any offer having been made or of Vettel declining anything.

It seems Vettel's (lack of) future at Ferrari was decided by Binotto after Vettel took both cars out of the Brazil race.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferra...-new-contract/

Call me sceptical but I would want to here a positive confirmation of no deal was offered. If no deal was offered there was no reason to leave because there was nothing to reject. I think if no deal ws offered he was still in a unique position of having the remains of this year to see what fell out of woodwork, normally he would definitely not have a seat because of the lack of time.

[peebee2]

Such things are rarely so clear cut.

Most likely is an offer was made, but an offer that was expected to be rejected as part of an ongoing negotiation that was then stopped.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Casper

Call me sceptical but I would want to here a positive confirmation of no deal was offered. If no deal was offered there was no reason to leave because there was nothing to reject. I think if no deal ws offered he was still in a unique position of having the remains of this year to see what fell out of woodwork, normally he would definitely not have a seat because of the lack of time.

You are NEVER going to hear that in this day and age. Even after the fact that gives away every bit of leverage you'd have in future negotiation with any party. There is a reason why reporters say things like "sources indicate" and "speculation is." Otherwise they lose their source and often the source loses their job.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by Casper

Call me sceptical but I would want to here a positive confirmation of no deal was offered. If no deal was offered there was no reason to leave because there was nothing to reject. I think if no deal ws offered he was still in a unique position of having the remains of this year to see what fell out of woodwork, normally he would definitely not have a seat because of the lack of time.

Or they discussed the potential for continue and found out there was no need to make a proposal because there was no shared vision how to move forward.

Obviously i have no experience in signing drivers in F1, however i have quite some experience in talks for ceo/cfo/coo positions as well as specific talent for decent sized firms. Typically you first have quite some discussion on how each party sees the fuure, and only offer if there is a shared vision. I would imagine that for Ferrari and Vettel its the same.

There can be so many variables discussed and disagreed on that offering something was never going to work. Think about items as where does Ferrari think they need to improve most on vs. what vettel thinks. What are Ferrari's views on the management vs. Vettel's view. Maybe Ferrari wants leclerc as clear nr.1. And Is Ferrari looking at gradual development or radical changes and how does Vettel see this? Maybe Vettel wanted a big part in the development and development direction and Ferrari sees Vettel as a driver who should focus on driving. Maybe one party only wants to continue based on a long term commitment and the other only short term. Etc. etc.
If both parties have differente views on most items it simply makes no sense to offer a contract.

[S griffin]

I just think it was they didn’t see Vettel as an answer to their problems. We don’t know what happened, but we can guess. It’s clear Leclerc is on top of his game and he’s one who can help them through the tough times. Vettel OTOH, for all his talent and friendly demeanour, seems unable to cope with a Ferrari team that’s going through this rough patch unfortunately

It must be hard for Vettel, he has a lot of talent, which he’s shown on plenty of occasions, but he seems unable to cope with the pressures of Ferrari and all the politics that go with it. Sad, but there you go

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Roninho

Or they discussed the potential for continue and found out there was no need to make a proposal because there was no shared vision how to move forward.

Obviously i have no experience in signing drivers in F1, however i have quite some experience in talks for ceo/cfo/coo positions as well as specific talent for decent sized firms. Typically you first have quite some discussion on how each party sees the fuure, and only offer if there is a shared vision. I would imagine that for Ferrari and Vettel its the same.

There can be so many variables discussed and disagreed on that offering something was never going to work. Think about items as where does Ferrari think they need to improve most on vs. what vettel thinks. What are Ferrari's views on the management vs. Vettel's view. Maybe Ferrari wants leclerc as clear nr.1. And Is Ferrari looking at gradual development or radical changes and how does Vettel see this? Maybe Vettel wanted a big part in the development and development direction and Ferrari sees Vettel as a driver who should focus on driving. Maybe one party only wants to continue based on a long term commitment and the other only short term. Etc. etc.
If both parties have differente views on most items it simply makes no sense to offer a contract.

I think this is the most likely scenario. It kind of goes along with what I wrote earlier. I can definitely see vettel wanting to have input on race strategy, car development paths, etc, having seen the shortcomings first hand now and the deficiencies compared to what he saw at red bull.

Ferrari probably sees a younger, super talented driver they can make their star and number one, who won't demand to have such organizational control over aspects other than driving, and would rather move forward with him and a clear cut number 2.

Can't blame either if this is the case, as a team should feel they are positioned for success without having the driver exercising total control. Likewise, vettel, having seen the defeats snatched from the jaws of victories over the years, and shortcomings all around in so many areas coupled with being a 4 time champion who was on a very tightly run team previously, rightfully feels he needs more input on what is going on around him.

I imagine if vettel were to stay in f1, and go to a team like renault, he will have quite a lot of control going forward.

[S griffin]

The problem is Ferrari has always been riddled with politics. It’s never easy in that team, especially when things aren’t going well. You need a strong head in there

The problem is for Vettel is that he has a very fast team mate in Leclerc, who seems unflappable and doesn’t let things get to him. And if he delivers and Vettel doesn’t, it doesn’t look good for Vettel, no matter how you try to paint it

Vettel probably felt he had a golden ticket going to Ferrari, but the problem is internally it’s not as easy as it is at Red Bull. He had everything going for him, great talent, great results, amazing achievements. But he’s going nowhere and it’s not helping Ferrari. Maybe with another team he might have had it easier in all that time he’s been with Ferrari.

But I wouldn’t be surprised to see him back on the grid next season. Might be Haas or it might be Renault who knows? He has a few options out there. But the question is how much longer will he go on? I have a feeling that he might struggle to recover from what has happened at Ferrari

[crmalcolm]

The problem is...
People seem to need for there to be a problem to attach failure to. Even to the point that multiple problems are referred to at the same time as being the problem.

Maybe there is no problem? It is what it is, results were not as hoped for so time to move on.
Could the issue be that too much effort is expended on determining and solving a problem that doesn't exist, and that the hardest thing to accept is that as long as we crown a winner then everyone else has to lose?
It's possible to be at the top of your performance and still not win, without there being a problem.

[S griffin]

Ferrari have tended to have a bit of a blame culture. So it’s no use saying what should be, they will always their way of doing things. The other thing is they have messed up too often of late and that’s why results have been lower than they should have been, even accounting for the better Mercedes car

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ferrari have tended to have a bit of a blame culture. So it’s no use saying what should be, they will always their way of doing things. The other thing is they have messed up too often of late and that’s why results have been lower than they should have been, even accounting for the better Mercedes car

Is it Ferrari who have messed up?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ferrari have tended to have a bit of a blame culture. So it’s no use saying what should be, they will always their way of doing things.

So I wanted to toss out an idea, but I am concerned that it will inadvertently come across as nationalistic and even play to national stereotypes (neither are my intent). I am mostly curious as to thought of those who live and operate in Europe vs. my outside view. I may well be very much off base here.

Regarding "blame culture". Might some of that go back to native legal systems which have roots in either continental or common law? In that "continental law" can be more "inquisitorial" in nature (not particularly sympathetic for the potentially innocent). Examples being cases such as the trial to determine fault in Aryton Senna's death or (I hate to bring this up given the polarizing views...) Amanda Knox. In which there is a strong desire to assign blame to someone. Even to the point of pinning a target on someone early on and then cranking the handle of the system to get the desired outcome (which may not be "the truth"). That this permeates the culture. In this case Ferrari's F1 team?

Richard

[S griffin]

I don’t know about how most of Europe operates. Certainly though as you say the Italian legal system when someone dies does tend to indicate a bit of a blame culture in that country. It’s annoying when that happens when someone dies in a motorsport event there, indeed there have been calls for motorsport to be exempt from the legal situation there

Certainly it would make sense for Ferrari if that’s the culture over there. Also there’s the latin side, chaotic and unpredictable, which Ferrari have shown that side of the last decade

[crmalcolm]

From living in Italy for a few years, my experience suggest that Italian culture is not so much a 'blame'. It is more that when something does not go as planned, it is difficult to accept any fault on your own part for the outcome. This can be seen as blame to an outsider, but it is more about expunging oneself from blame.

The difference is subtle, but is clear when understood.

Our legal solicitor explaining to us that, following a car accident, the default position for insurance companies is self-liability. You each accept an equal fault in the accident and carry out your own repairs. The same is true in property issues, and many other factors of life. If it's outside of your home, it's someone else's problem, you are not at fault if anything occurs.

What this does mean is that, if you are really determined to blame someone else for something, you need to be prepared for a lengthy legal battle. The second order effect of this is that there are some very talented individuals in the legal system who specialise in finding this 'blame'. When an opportunity arises to demonstrate this 'talent' (and thereby increase your potential earnings), the clamour to get on board with the 'blaming' is intensified.

Vettel himself touched upon this cultural situation (and the lack of understanding from many that has been demonstrated in this thread) in an interview earlier this month.

Vettel claims Ferrari are often ‘misunderstood’

'It’s very Italian inside, has very Italian rules and traditions, which is great, that they are kept, but equally it’s very modern.
I think sometimes also this is misunderstood, because you look at Italy to say that they are very traditional with lots of things and ‘la mamma’ and all this, whatever.
But, you know, people are still very, very forward-thinking and I think we have a lot of young great talents in the team, great people with great ideas, creative ideas, and that’s why in a way it’s a shame that we haven’t, you know – in terms of results – haven’t had that breakthrough yet.'